van der Donkey of the race

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Mark Webber.

The Red Bull was the fastest car out there (which he proved) and yet Seb got pole and won the race. Webber with the fastest car could only manage fourth; with three former champions ahead of him... :P

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I'd say more than Mark, Red Bull deserves a permanent donkey, really. It's been known for at least three years now, that the driving styles of Webber and Vettel are extremely different. Last season was all the proof you needed. In the early season the car (with less rear downforce) fit Mark's style and he was way more comfortable in the car than Vettel, hence his two wins to Vettel's one at Bahrain. Once the Newey gang had clawed back the loss of rear downforce from the nixed trick diffusor, the car was to Vettel's liking and Mark dropped back as if he was dragging an anchor.
Why RB insist on keeping this particular combo is a mystery to me. Bot Vettel and Webber seem unable to adapt to the car if it doesn't fit their preference. So they are always going to have one driver, who underperforms and given the fact, who's been bringing home the bacon in the last years, I doubt they're going to adapt the car to Mark.

Usually I do not think about donkeys, but watching the race this time one driver stood out very clearly to me. Not only did van der Garde lack pace, but also got involved in several embarrassing incidents in what was otherwise quite a clean race with little attrition. Only 3 retirements - one was vdG, other was the driver he took out as a backmarker (Hulk).

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Originally Posted by wedge

Why do some people insist Webber is an under rated driver?

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Perhaps he was that in Williams and also early Red Bull years. But now he is in a slow decline mode and indeed not really underrated any more. Same with Massa.

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Originally Posted by jens

Usually I do not think about donkeys, but watching the race this time one driver stood out very clearly to me. Not only did van der Garde lack pace, but also got involved in several embarrassing incidents in what was otherwise quite a clean race with little attrition. Only 3 retirements - one was vdG, other was the driver he took out as a backmarker (Hulk).

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I agree about the lack of pace, that was poor he was 3 laps down when he retired.

A question though. Did you not feel Hulkenberg turned into VDG to early when retaking the racing line? Just a thought. VDG obviously eased up on the straight, and Hulkenberg went past and instead of taking the inside line, he tried to pull over onto the normal line where VDG still was.

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

I agree about the lack of pace, that was poor he was 3 laps down when he retired.

A question though. Did you not feel Hulkenberg turned into VDG to early when retaking the racing line? Just a thought. VDG obviously eased up on the straight, and Hulkenberg went past and instead of taking the inside line, he tried to pull over onto the normal line where VDG still was.

What do you think?

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I see, where you are coming from. But the difference was that vd Garde was a lapped driver and Hülkenberg fully expected him to simply brake earlier. I mean usually, when we see drivers getting lapped, they really ease off the throttle enough to let the driver fully in front before the braking zone and not get your nose in there.

When drivers race for position, then you have an argument that a car wasn't a car length ahead and should have taken this into account. But a good lapped driver takes into account that he has no claim to "race for track position" and makes it comfortable for the guys to get ahead. It was not like Hulk made a last-gasp dive, which came as a surprise to vd Garde. The Dutchman must have seen the German behind him and considered letting him past already in the beginning of the long straight.

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Why RB insist on keeping this particular combo is a mystery to me. Bot Vettel and Webber seem unable to adapt to the car if it doesn't fit their preference. So they are always going to have one driver, who underperforms and given the fact, who's been bringing home the bacon in the last years, I doubt they're going to adapt the car to Mark.

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Having drivers with different preferences is an eternal problem for F1 teams.

Kubica and Heidfeld were different. Heidfeld shone in 2007, Kubica in 2008. In both years the other driver's potential wasn't properly fulfilled.

Trulli and Ralf Schumacher were different. Too often only one of them was on pace, while the other struggling. It was too visible even in car design. Once they designed a front suspension suitable to Ralf, Jarno lost his magnificent pace.

Fisichella could never properly adapt to the car in which Alonso stood out.

F1 teams want two competitive drivers even if they have different styles. It is a compromise, but they think it is a better compromise than having a lesser even if somewhat similar driver to the lead driver. Because the lesser driver would still throw it away and not perform, while the quality driver is able to adapt at least to some extent to deliver at least solid results.

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Originally Posted by jens

I see, where you are coming from. But the difference was that vd Garde was a lapped driver and Hülkenberg fully expected him to simply brake earlier. I mean usually, when we see drivers getting lapped, they really ease off the throttle enough to let the driver fully in front before the braking zone and not get your nose in there.

When drivers race for position, then you have an argument that a car wasn't a car length ahead and should have taken this into account. But a good lapped driver takes into account that he has no claim to "race for track position" and makes it comfortable for the guys to get ahead. It was not like Hulk made a last-gasp dive, which came as a surprise to vd Garde. The Dutchman must have seen the German behind him and considered letting him past already in the beginning of the long straight.

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Thats true. I just felt Hulkenberg should have kept his wits about him and knowing he was passing so late into the corner, just left a bit more space.

If he had passed earlier on the straight then he would be entitled to move across back onto the racing line and not expect VDG to be there, but as it was so late you can never be sure whether he would still be there or he might make an error.

I just think Nico was a bit careless.

Anyway VDG was very poor this race. Just an observation