The fall of McLaren

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Originally Posted by zako85

There is no doubt in my mind that Benetton was the fastest car for much 1994. This is the first time I hear a claim to the contrary. The delta between Hill's and Schumacher's performance was huge.

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That's because Schumacher was a far superior driver to Hill. You obviously haven't been watching long or never paid attention if you believe the Williams was anything but the best car on the grid in 1994.

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Schumacher cruised to victory even once handed a two race ban and disqualifications from two other races. You can still argue Hill may have been simply the worse driver, but I'd disagree. 1993 was Hill's first full time year in F1, and he quite impressed riding side by side with Prost, which was a very good yardstick for judging Hill. Also do not forget the massive allegations of cheating against Benetton, from launch control, engine maps to illegal refueling valves. Schumacher probably tried to forget 1994 as soon as possible as there will be forever the question mark about whether he won it in a cheater car. On the other hand, if Hill had won it, and Hill was close, I think he wouldn't have been proud of it either, having beaten the guy who was absent from championship scores for four races. It was kind of an ugly season for all parties involved.

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Hill was an underrated driver, but he was far inferior to Schumacher. Prost comfortably won his duel with Hill, though Hill was impressive. There were allegations of cheating against Ferrari too. Nothing was ever proven with Benetton apart from the plank. Hardly the reason why Schumacher was so dominant.

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I am not sure why this debate is being resurrected though. All I did at the start is claim that using the customer Ford engine which lagged behind Benetton in 1993 does not seem to have hurt McLaren a lot. Even the "works" Ford engine used by Benetton wasn't that special. This is why Benetton dumped it at the first opportunity.

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Benetton was worse than the McLaren in 1993. Didn't even have a semi-automatic gearbox, traction control and active suspension until mid-season.

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I would strongly disagree that nothing has been proven about Benetton's cheating. Yes, formally, nothing significant has been proven and Benetton was simply allowed to walk away without much public. In reality there were plenty of warning signs that Benetton was cheating. For one, even Schumacher had at one point a slip of tongue when publicly admitting that his car was fitted with launch control. The FIA action was mild because the season was already marred by the death of Ayrton Senna. A big public scandal was not what they needed. Schumacher got handed a few harsh penalties (for other things) and the matter was effectively closed. In the light of all of this, I am shocked that _anybody_ takes the 1994 season seriously and even uses season to judge drivers and teams. Its preposterous to also make the claim that Schumacher was clearly better than Senna. Let me remind you that Senna crashed and died in the third race in 1994. How can you possibly draw any conclusions on Senna vs Schumacher from 1994 season? As for 1993, Senna has beat Schumacher by a wide margin. Granted Schumacher drove well and admirably in arguably an inferior car, but nonetheless with a Ford works engine against McLaren's customer Ford engine.

I am sorry but your whole argument is extremely weak. I have seen this before. In your book, if someone beats Schumacher it's always because of having better car. But if Schumacher win, it's solely due to his superior skills. A classic funboyish argument we heard many times as being applied to Alonso, Vettel, <insert name> more recently. 1994 was a good counter argument to that theory. There is plenty of evidence for Benetton having the better car that season, some of that due to a good design and some due to cheating. How well that car started and then quickly peeled off from the rest was one evidence. But in your book Schumy wins in a slower car because he is a better driver than Hill. Anyways. We heard this before many times.

In 1993 Schumacher was more impressive than Senna in a Benetton that didn't have active suspension, a semi-automatic gearbox, and traction control until mid-season. In 1994 he started were he finished in 1993 and with an improved Benetton was actually getting the better of Senna on the track. He humiliated Senna in Brazil. Senna had jumped specifically to the best team on the grid and thought the championship was already his. I can't believe anyone takes seriously allegations of cheating by a egomaniacal sociopath like Senna. Senna couldn't believe how much speed Schumacher would carry into a corner, therefore it must be cheating? No, that's down to what was Schumacher's unique driving style at the time. Throughout his career he managed to carry more speed into corners than any other driver.

You're obviously new to F1 if you think the 94 Benetton was even remotely on the level of the Williams.

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Originally Posted by faster69

Senna had jumped specifically to the best team on the grid.

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Which it was in '93, no question, but even Senna ran rings round the '93 Williams and Prost on occasion.

In '94, Williams struggled initially to adjust to the banning of TC, Active Ride and ABS. Once they had adjusted the car accordingly through development, the car became the class of the field in the latter half of the season, by which time Ayrton was pushing up the daisy's.

The Italian courtcase took a lot of focus away from the Williams team, and you can well understand that.

I'm not new to F1 but I can draw my opinion from reading and listening to the opinions of Senna, Newey and Hill when they said the package in early 1994 was troublesome and didn't reach its true potential until the start of the European season. Loss of driver aids didn't help.

This is heavily off topic in any case and lets hope McLaren are not about to go into a season like 1994 when they revert to Honda engines for 2015. They've lost key personnel and understanding the car has been difficult.

Schumy was obviously a better driver. Who else could rapidly alternate his brakes on and off mid corner to achieve computer accurate levels of grip. If only there were photos. ;)

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Schumy was obviously a better driver. Who else could rapidly alternate his brakes on and off mid corner to achieve computer accurate levels of grip. If only there were photos. ;)

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Ah the benfits of audio analysis.

There is a great clip of him 'not' using Foustos favourite electronic engineers handy work but it might be lost in the depth of the inter web these days. Perhaps Uncs still has it :) where is the ole sod when you need him?

It now seems that Mercedes have picked up in 2013 where McLaren left off in 2012. Almost a straight swap!

I hope to be proved wrong but I don't expect much from McLaren this year or next while they are still running Mercedes engines. It'll only be once they get Honda power they'll start to come good again.

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Originally Posted by Mark

It now seems that Mercedes have picked up in 2013 where McLaren left off in 2012. Almost a straight swap!

I hope to be proved wrong but I don't expect much from McLaren this year or next while they are still running Mercedes engines. It'll only be once they get Honda power they'll start to come good again.

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Button's interview with NBC's Will Buxton didn't sound very encouraging. We're very close to a point where McLaren will write off this season completely and work on the new car for 2014 IMHO.