Nice of you to finally acknowledge how much you really rate Jenson Button - Best Driver in the World, you read it here first!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
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Nice of you to finally acknowledge how much you really rate Jenson Button - Best Driver in the World, you read it here first!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry Walker
No. Much like Webber now, DC and Ruben's were racing against team mates who were much more consistent and dare I say better. I don't see the point in declaring a driver is rubbish simply because he can't consistently beat a World Champion team mate. That doesn't mean they are not very good drivers who deserve credit for their success. After all this is Formula One not football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
It is dismaying to read so many smug and oh so knowledgeable armchair hard men layin' down the authoritah and sinking the boot in. I can think of a few very good racers that didn't win a WDC whilst occupying a prime seat, and/or having the misfortune to come up against a prodigy in their time - go and do some research. But for some I should imagine that is a step too far, and in which case maybe a Mod should school these deluded souls from time to time... But then again, I am Australian so my opinion of a driver from my own country doesn't count it seems.
This forum's standards of discourse has declined rapidly over the past 6mths, which is a mystery as there are some knowledgeable people posting here.
I agree. Such people have no historical perspective, nor an appreciation of the fact that ability cannot only be measured through statistics. It saddens me that, today, a driver as outstanding as Chris Amon would be described as a 'loser' or similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFamousEccles
I don't think anyone is saying he is a great driver, just a good one. It's just that he has probably the fastest driver in F1 as a teammate. Without Vettel's presense, Webber could well be a WDC right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
Indeed. I don't think there is any doubt that Vettel is the primary focus of Red Bull and has been since 2009. Webber is a multople race winner and even the best car does not always guarantee an easy victory. Many would say Ferrari had the best car in 2008 but would we hear claims Kimi is rubbish because he often couldn't match Felipe that year? Definitely not. The bigger picture needs to be analysed in every scenario, especially at this level.Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
if i was kimmi Better stay with Lotus. and become number one driver. rather than going to join. vettel. hmm they will somehow make hime number two driver. lotus is a very strong team even though no one seems to notice that. they are one of the fastes at the moment.. redbull need another loser to help Vettel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koz
You say "solely" but what about Horner, the engineers, Renault, the owner, the pit crews. All go towards the BEST TEAM mantel. Vettel and Webber have to do the business end and they do.
You give only an honorary mention to a phenomenon (Vettel) and no credit to the other, more senior, driver in the team.
Webber has been at Red Bull a lot of years and, I presume, with Newey's blessing.
Why do you say "yet"? I don't recall ever saying that Webber is better than Vettel.Quote:
Yet, it is his team mate, who has always prevailed by quite a margin (lets take Vettel's engine failures into consideration).
The way Webber is being attacked it sounds like he is being lowered into the car in an old peoples sling and only finds his way around a track with the assistance of a GPS and bump stops.
Such a terrible thing to say about RBR and the question must be asked - why do you think their charity wasn't extended to the other races in the season?Quote:
Where was he last year?
Where was in in 2011 when his team mate won half the races and Webber had one out of RBR's charity?
As I noted earlier, Vettel is a phenomenon. Vettel is earning his achievements without a dominant car and against a rule book that is designed to combat greatness. Phenomenal.
Just maybe Webber's many years of experience have contributed to Red Bull success but you haven't acknowledged that possibility. Red Bull sign him for some reason or other. What reason could they possibly have?
In 2010 Mark made his stupid crack to the world about being the #2 driver when winning the British GP. He won the GP of Hungary a few weeks later and then won nothing until Brazil in 2011. Webber's performances have changed markedly since 2010. Someone said in another thread that Webber drives well when he's p*ssed, I would hazard a guess that the opposite might be true.
He has been bested but its nothing that a couple of race wins won't fix. We're only talking tenths of a second after all.
I have enjoyed immensely watching my countryman driving in a top tier team.Quote:
Yes, where his younger team mate, only in his second season in F1 beat him. Hum, yes that is impressive.
Didn't really impress in the second half of that season either.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by DexDexter
Gutierrez would look like the fastest driver in F1 in the kind of car RB has had since 2009.
the red bull was only superior car in 2011. mclaren had better race pace but poorer reliability than the red bull. the red bull had better pace than the ferrari in the second half of the season, but the ferrari had great reliability all year and decent race pace which is what kept alonso in the championship. nothing between red bull, ferrari and mclaren in 2010.