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No, Italy and Greece both scored significantly lower than GB by the FIA. I'm not saying GB has been a roaring success of late mind. Also factor in that the UK is Europe's most important market for the 'hot-hatch' sector, which is what Rally cars are broadly aimed at if we're talking about Rallying as a marketing tool for selling cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by MJW
And I was in Italy in 2012, probably an equivalent amount of fans as GB in most places we were at.
If they put the events on in spectator-friendly places then the people WILL come.
I know that in Liverpool whatever has been put on from the 2008 Capital of Culture onwards has been very well supported.
In terms of motorsport there was a fantastic turnout in the city for the Pageant of Power demonstration:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTH1euFo_OI
There used to be stages at Oulton Park, Knowsley Safari Park, Aintree and Haigh Hall which were all hugely popular.
This is the best way to remind the general public about rallying - like cycling has done here recently.
You really would think we were dealing in rocket science here. The arrogance, stupidity, ineptitude and out right incompetence of the people in charge of the World Rally Championship over the last 15 years, and the RAC/Welsh Rally/Swansea Stages in particular, beggars belief. The RAC Rally was the biggest single event live spectator draw in UK sport at the beginning of the 1990's, bigger than Wimbledon, The Open golf and whatever else you can think of that I haven't. This was in the days when Jimmy McRae and Russell Brookes were largely cannon fodder, Pentti Airikkala was considered a local and Colin McRae was wrapping Sierra's around trees, i.e without major home interest. And yet, they threw it away. For people to watch the event you have to have it at least somewhere near them, and the opening day spectator stages did that, at the cost of about £5 per car for a spectator, and some red faces for drivers who crashed on them. Having millions watching on day one legitimises the 3 days spent on hill sides in the middle of nowhere with a few thousand hardy petrol heads braving hypothermia. Covering a large part of the country also helps, there are only so many people who live in the hilly parts of mid Wales, if you stretch it out through Northern England and Southern Scotland you get a few more. All this is simple logic. The decision to move it all to Wales was a kick in the nuts for all the events loyal English and Scottish fans. Three of my uncles, and sometimes my dad, used to trapes out into Grizedale every year, they are all mechanics and into cars, now none would know the event was being held, never mind who was in it and what they might be driving. By having effectively about 5 stages run 3 times each reduces the events reach still further. And when no-one turns up people scratch heads. Someone needs to get in charge say "thanks Wales but we arent the vehicle for you to push for independence" and get the event out into Sutton Park, Chatsworth, Donnington, Tatton Park and Knowsley, the Lake District, Kielder, South Scotland and Yorkshire, and watch it grow. And then, when they allow decent cars in again we might end up somewhere.
It sounds like a rant, and it is a rant, but being a rally fan over the last 20 years has been like as if 11 a side outdoor football was banned and replaced with 5 a side, in sports halls, for £150 a head. Its just a joke.
And Italy. The San Remo Rally used to cover a good portion of Northern Italy, within reach of Turin, Milan, Genoa, Florence, Bologna, you know, where people in Italy live. Then it was reduced to 'a rally on a circuit' or what ever the called it on about 4 stages directly outside of San Remo, and then they put it on an island that is by its very nature hard to get to. Jeezo! This is Italy, everyone likes cars there, and they still made a hash of it. What hope have they got anywhere else?!
I see very little with which to disagree in the above post. All I'd add is that the decline of the British Rally Championship has gone side-by-side with the decline of Britain's round of the WRC. This, too, saddens me greatly. The British Open series was, in its heyday, really something, and the events were well-attended too. That has also been thrown away. No wonder the sport is at such a low ebb.
Must be honest, this thread is such depressing reading...the negativity it mind blowing on it!!
Spectator pens:
I've been to the last 4 WRGB's and all in the 80's and 90's....I've not once been asked to stand in a pen!! be sensible and be safe and everyone is happy.
Spectator stages:
The ones possible being used this year haven't been used before but, Kinmel camp which is oooh all of 200 mtrs from Bodelwyddan castle certainly has...
Attracting people:
I'd agree the stage prices are a touch high, £15 max would be more realistic.
Route:
Now this is what I never understand. One can only presume that those saying 'it should go here,there,everywhere' and 'it should use more stages'...don't understand the following.
The Police/general public simply wouldn't stand for the kind of on road driving the old style event required....the press would have a field day now if cars were mounting pavements/driving hard shoulders etc.
Forestry costs are simply mental, around £670 per mile 1st use and roughly £400 second use...so lets do 200 mile 1st use that's around £135k just on forestry fees, before you add in insurance/permits/medics the list goes on and on.
Put simply the route is cost effective and managed at a level that is sustainable in the 21st century, (incidentally the Roger Albert Clark uses an almost identical template but for the cars)...
Please please people appreciate what we've got , make constructive ideas but the constant looking back has to stop...
It is hard to be positive, and not look back, when the past was so much better than the present in every regard. I admit that I had never taken into account what you said regarding the expense of effectively hiring a load of forests for the weekend. So, taking into account that I will try to be constructive and propose what I would like to see in a 'RAC' Rally of Great Britain within the modern constraints of the World Rally Championship, with a few tweaks here and there. Firstly, it makes sense to have rally's over the weekend, rather than the old start on Sunday, run through the week format the RAC used to follow, as most people will be at work otherwise. So we are already limited to 3 days, if we start on Friday afternoon, which isn't long if you want to pack in spectator stages, Wales, Kielder area and Yorkshire. To start with I would base the rally somewhere fairly central to all those areas, like Chester or somewhere similar, and start out from there on the Friday lunch time. From there they could have a loop through Wales, 3 stages first like Dyfnant, Gartheinog and Dyfi before a service at Dollgellau and then Penmachno and a couple in Clocaenog. Then, with it being Friday night they could do a live TV stage in the dark on the Great Orme road. Night stages are an essential part of what makes rallying stand out from other forms of motorsport, and a well advertised slot on Friday night could do well. Then they could start out early on Saturday with a couple of spectator stages, somewhere like Oulton Park and Knowsley, fairly close to Manchester and Liverpool and ideal for a dad to take his son to on Saturday morning before the football. From there they could have service in Chester again before moving on to the Lakes and doing Grizedale south and north and then one of Wythop or Greystoke, and then on to a service halt in Carlisle. By this time in November (it has to be in November, no debate there) it would be getting dark and they can move on to Kielder for 4 stages, 2 to the west say Kershope and Newcasleton, and 2 to the east with a service in between. Kielder is a famous name in rallying circles and the night leg through was almost the RAC's version of the Col du Turini to an extent. A live night stage on a Saturday from Kielder I'm sure would be a decent TV draw. It wouldn't be easy, but I'm sure it could be worked out. Then they could overnight in Hexham and on Sunday do Hamsterley, a couple of the North Yorks stages, a service, a couple more of the North Yorks stages, the last of which could be televised around Sunday lunchtime, before heading back to Chester for the prize giving.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynmor Pierce
By my count that gives 21 stages and about 370km of competition. Not long, pretty short even by modern standards, but with scope for the history of the event to be taken into account, a much broader area of potential spectators to be attracted, live stages and night time rallying. It also gives plenty of time between stages so that nobody has to worry about the Police looking for a PR scoop. Of the 21 stages 17 at around 220 miles worth are in forests and with your prices I would put the expense of that at circa £150,000, hardly breaking the bank, and easily coverable by any event sponsor.
I can always dream I supppose.
That would be a traditional RAC route. Can you estimate the total length of the route? Could it be realistic to include at least the stages in the Lake District and Kielder with a start and finish in Wales? Wales is sponsoring the rally but if they could agree to have the start in Carlisle, which I doubt, it would make the route shorter.Quote:
Originally Posted by trickydicky
Looking at total distance and stage distance from juwra.com**|**Rallies - Great Britain the total distance in the 80΄s and beginning of 90΄s was between 2145 km (1981) 3465 km (1985), mostly between 2300 km 2600 km. The stage distance was between 494 km (1987) 869 km :eek: (1984), mostly between 500 km 600 km.
In 1981 the organiser managed to squeeze in 747 stage km into a total distance of 2145 km total distance.
Below are the itinerary for 1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992.
1988:
Sunday Thursday, 52 stages
Planned stage distance: 604.43 km (21.5% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 604.43 km (21.5% of total distance)
Road section distance: 2,200.66 km
Total distance: 2,805.09 km
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps02222b3e.jpg
1990:
Sunday Wednesday, 41 stages
Planned stage distance: 566.27 km (24.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 566.27 km (24.0% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,792.50 km
Total distance: 2,358.77 km
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...psd8ac52ed.jpg
1991:
Sunday Wednesday, 37 stages
Planned stage distance: 565.51 km (24.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 565.51 km (24.0% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,789.80 km
Total distance: 2,355.31 km
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...oute1991-1.jpg
1992:
Sunday Wednesday, 34 stages
Planned stage distance: 567.80 km (23.0% of total distance)
Actual stage distance: 534.77 km (21.7% of total distance)
Road section distance: 1,928.74 km
Total distance: 2,463.51 km
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/i...psdc927a0e.jpg
Finally some common sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Brynmor Pierce
Wales might be sponsoring the rally, but it's still the Wales Rally of Great Britain. The organisers would probably understand having stages across the border, and may even be agreeable to the idea if they're as keen on attracting more spectators with a fan-friendly route as they say they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
After all, we've already seen the Rally Sweden cross over into Norway for a few stages this year (and in previous years), and Rally Germany is starting in Cologne with the cars driving through the night - and taking on a stage or two - on the way to Trier. So it probably could be done.