Josef Stalin

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

Here is his map of civilizations from 1996.

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...diose1/civ.jpg

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Bosnia is Orthodox? (oh dear what may I be starting?)

I’m not sure I understand what that map is trying to achieve.
It's a mix of national boundaries, cultural and religious demarcations.

Why are some countries grouped as, for example, “orthodox” or “Buddhist” whereas others are purely national, e.g. Japanese. Japan could just as easily be grouped as “Buddhist”.
Or, one could throw in “Catholic” and completely change the map :mark: .

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Originally Posted by schmenke

I’m not sure I understand what that map is trying to achieve.

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It is one political scientist's view on the major civilizations of the world.

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

Can I just say that I am wiruwiru and I approve Garry Walker's messages on this thread. :up:

Ben, where would you draw the line between East and West? Still along the Iron Curtain? I don't think the distinction is so much geographical as it is cultural. As Samuel Huntington would probably say, it's a matter of civilizations. Here is his map of civilizations from 1996.

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...diose1/civ.jpg

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What a truly bizarre set of divisions.
What truly simplistic and frankly bizarre assertions of history.

Studlie-ousus, I know you are no fan of what the Soviets did to Estonia, but it smells an awful like what the guy "Walker' is if fact saying is an veiled support for that which the Germans did...or, at best, equivocation... the "they all the same thing" argument.
tsk tsk tsk.....

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Studlie-ousus, I know you are no fan of what the Soviets did to Estonia, but it smells an awful like what the guy "Walker' is if fact saying is an veiled support for that which the Germans did...or, at best, equivocation... the "they all the same thing" argument.
tsk tsk tsk.....

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I see no support for what the Germans did in Garry Walker's posts. And would you prefer one murderous dictator to another, especially given that Stalin's death toll was higher than Hitler's, and they essentially started the war together?

Yes, "they all the same thing".

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

Can I just say that I am wiruwiru and I approve Garry Walker's messages on this thread. :up:

Ben, where would you draw the line between East and West? Still along the Iron Curtain? I don't think the distinction is so much geographical as it is cultural. As Samuel Huntington would probably say, it's a matter of civilizations. Here is his map of civilizations from 1996.

http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...diose1/civ.jpg

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I read his book clash of civilisations and its pretty poorly thought out. As for the map, its nonsensical and ignores political alignments. There have been more wars between states in a particular civilisation area than there are between them, just look at Europe.

Any map that classifies, say, Turkey (which is still closely tied to Israel) with the Arab states and Iran as one monolithic bloc is worthless, even a cursory look at the history of the last 200 years in that area would show you that.

As for the assertion that the USSR was looking to get involved in WW2 Stalin certainly had an odd way of getting ready by purging his armed forces of its best officers and keeping units deliberately short of ammunition so they wouldn't cause much damage if/when they rebelled. Stalin agreed to take Eastern Poland as part of the RMP as it was a 'freebie'. Why shouldn't he have taken it if he was offered it in return for a guarantee that the Soviets would not intervene in Poland?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

As for the assertion that the USSR was looking to get involved in WW2 Stalin certainly had an odd way of getting ready by purging his armed forces of its best officers and keeping units deliberately short of ammunition so they wouldn't cause much damage if/when they rebelled. Stalin agreed to take Eastern Poland as part of the RMP as it was a 'freebie'. Why shouldn't he have taken it if he was offered it in return for a guarantee that the Soviets would not intervene in Poland?

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That's a curious morality you're arguing under... Why not? :rolleyes: Because Poland was a sovereign nation, as were Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, which Stalin attacked in late 1939.

Yes, the USSR was not ready to fight a major power in 1939. (It was hardly ready in 1941..) But the fact remains that the war started 7 days after the signing of the non-aggression pact between Germany and the USSR, and within a few months the USSR had annexed Eastern Poland, the Baltics and several other territories, as well as starting a war against Finland.

They seemed to be involved pretty damned quickly..

Stalin was looking for low hanging fruit (though Finland proved tougher than expected) and Poland with it's forces fighting Germany was not only the easiest grab but also the largest potential threat and the most bitter memory in the minds of Russians. Poland had attacked the Soviet Union in 1920, took Vilnius for its own in the same year, then took a piece of Czechoslovakia in league with Germany in 1938 so there wasn't as much sympathy for them in the USSR.

What do you think, which kind of map would be a good one then? As far as I am concerned, as dividing a world into parts is subjective, it is open to interpreration, depends on the goal and is easily debatable.

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Originally Posted by wiruwiru

That's a curious morality you're arguing under... Why not? :rolleyes: Because Poland was a sovereign nation, as were Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and Finland, which Stalin attacked in late 1939.

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I'm not arguing morality, after all I think that was an alien concept to Stalin anyway. All those countries you mention are in the USSR and in particular Russia's sphere of influence. It is one thing to suggest that Stalin wanted to reassert Soviet power in its sphere of influence and quite another to say that he wanted to expand into areas where Russia had never before extended like Eastern and Central Europe.

Likewise China since the revolution has been extremely aggressive in its assertion of power in its own local sphere of influence but until recently was completely absent outside it. It is possible to behave completely differently inside and outside your sphere of influence, and that is what Stalin did.