When a trespasser is discovered, I simply do not consider that shooting them dead is a proportionate response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
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When a trespasser is discovered, I simply do not consider that shooting them dead is a proportionate response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
I cannot think of any circumstances under which I would find myself in such a situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
Ben you always try to duck or only pick the part of the conversation where you can protect you leftist beliefs.
I'm not a lawyer. I don't play one on TV. And I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But the one stumbling block that Zimmerman may face in his claim is that it's already a known fact that the 911 dispatcher told him NOT to pursue this kid. I don't know if the 911 tapes have been released to the public. But according to the police, that's what is on them: Zimmerman being instructed NOT to follow or pursue the Martin kid. But Zimmerman dismissed this and continued the pursuit. So it would seem to me that if anyone was entitled to the "stand your ground" defense, it would have been Martin. A man, who was not a law enforcement officer, is pursuing you and acting in a threatening manner. So, the way I read that law, Martin could have made a better case for clipping Zimmerman than the other way around. If you follow me and run up on me asking questions and acting all bad-ass, you better hope that you're a cop... or on good terms with God.
As far as this trespassing claim, as far as I know, that's all it is at this point. In what little I've read, even if Martin was within a private gated community, he was on the common ground (a sidewalk), not on any particular resident's private property... Zimmerman's least of all.
Another thing. As most here know, I am a gun owner and a member of the NRA. But I am not some sort of wingnut (yeah, I am a nut, but not a wingnut :p :) . And I do believe in a person's right to defend himself and his property against imminent threats (not perceived threats). But the way that I was brought up, you don't reach for a gun to solve each and every problem that you have! And that is a primary problem that faces modern day America, IMO. Across all stripes and divides, the first thing many of our citizens want to do is grab a gun and get all John Wayne with somebody. And the worst type of citizen that we have here (even worse than the criminals, IMO) is the cop-wannabe. These are people who, for various reasons, cannot become cops. So they appoint themselves "watch captains" and the like, buy the same types of guns, shoes and even cars that cops use. They buy police radios. They even hang out in cop bars and try to buddy up to them. They're like groupies to cops. My uncle was a Fed. A buddy of mine is a state trooper. They both hate these types of people. And they'll both tell you that when paranoid, wingnut flakes like this get their hands on guns, and go wandering about, sooner or later, the story is bound to end badly for someone.
In my day, ANY grown man that wanted to keep an eye on his land or cattle would probably carry a sidearm or shotgun. But against a 17 year old kid, any man that couldn't handle that situation without grabbing for his gun... well, we had a name for a fellow like that. It's an offensive term, so I won't use it. But I will say, "Here, kitty kitty. Here, kitty. Here, puddy cat." ;) In other words, if Georgie Zimmerman winds up in jail (and I suspect that he will), he better have access to plenty of cigarettes... or KY Jelly.
No. Only in the case that Zimmerman instigated the confrontation and then withdrew (and was pursued) would he get a pass. These darn kids and their cellphones. Even a dead teenager still has a way to get you hanged these days. :( Sounds like the kid was the one in fear for his life and wanted to be left alone. But we'll see how it plays out. As long as Georgie can get an all White jury (that just came from a Rick Santorum rally), he might skate. Hey, in the American south, stranger things have happened, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by schmenke
Quote:
776.041. Use of force by aggressor
The justification described in the preceding sections of this
chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the
commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself,
unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably
believes that he or she is in imminent danger of
death or great bodily harm and that he or she has
exhausted every reasonable means to escape such
danger other than the use of force which is likely
to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical
contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the
assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate
the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
Which other bits do you wish me to respond to, then? Both of my responses cover the whole of your contributions pretty adequately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
How nice to see (a) a well-written, (b) a considered and (c) a humane viewpoint from someone who supports the US gun laws, rather than the usual belligerent stuff. What do you think is at the root of this problem? On these forums, I see contributions from individuals whose attitude seems to me to glorify not just the right to bear arms, but also violence itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
My wild guess? Fear. I mean, when it comes down to it, we are animals just like any other. How does a dog, cat or rat react when it's fearful? With aggression, right? I'm not making that comparison to p!ss off my fellow citizens. In fact, I have had a tendency to become aggressive in certain situations myself (my username was a "gift" from an old girlfriend many moons ago). So I don't mean to come off as holier than thou.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Years ago I had a carry permit for a certain jurisdiction where I did business. Back then they weren't available state wide. And you had to demonstrate a need to get one. I picked up weekend deposits for a business I had and that's how I got one. And anyway, you can legally carry a sidearm (in plain view) where I live now. But I don't carry a gun. My father didn't carry a gun. My grandfather didn't carry a gun. We always had lots of firearms around. But the way my dad saw it, a man can handle his problems without a gun on his side. And if the only way you can handle a problem is if you have a gun on your side, maybe you're not as much of a man as you pretend to be. I'm not saying that there might not be a situation where you might be better off with one than without one. About the only time I carry a gun now is if I go outside my home late at night. For robbers and meth headed home intruders? Nah. A couple of 300+ pound black bears have been spotted near here recently. I'll fight almost any man. But I ain't fightin' no bear (even a little one)! Nopey!!! Plus, I can't run that fast anymore. :D
But people like this Zimmerman guy strike me as the cop-wannabe type that I mentioned above. It appears to me that he went out looking for a problem and he found one. Unfortunately, some kid who just wanted some candy and a soda paid the price.
Sadly, the fine fellow below would have probably won the GOP nomination by now (if he wasn't dead... and fictional).
http://img225.imagevenue.com/loc850/..._122_850lo.jpg
There are just a lot of scared, angry, paranoid people around these days. I fear that there is no cure for this disease. And it seems to be getting worse, IMO.
Jag_Warrior, I have great respect for your opinions as expressed here, and the way you express them.
And, maybe, is there not an element of the argument that says one should know better than to get oneself into certain situations in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
Thank you. I very much appreciate that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
That's true in some situations (like Zimmerman's case, I would say), but not always. Sometimes people look for, or get into, situations where they should know better = looking for trouble. But there are those times when it just happens = trouble finds you. The most horrible thing that's happened to me was a drug dealer that took over one of my apartments back in the 80's. I didn't realize he was in there when I knocked on the door. But he came out and right off the bat tried to stab me with a knife. Had he done it "Roman style" (with a straight jab, instead of overhand), he would have likely killed me. But with my cat-like reflexes and lightning speed (in other words, I got lucky ;) ), I was able to catch his hand on the down move. And since I was much bigger than him, I won the wrestling match. I moved him to a stairwell, grabbed his neck as he was kicking me and we both found out that coke might get you high, but it doesn't give you the power of flight.Quote:
And, maybe, is there not an element of the argument that says one should know better than to get oneself into certain situations in the first place?
I was armed with a .38 in an ankle holster. But I had no opportunity to get to it. I would have been totally in the right to shoot him. But only at the beginning of our battle. When I see these John Wayne wannabe types talking sh## about what they would do in violent situations, I roll my eyes. I was in the right. But the sight of that guy laying lifeless on that concrete pad, 20+ feet below where I tossed him, scared the absolute hell out of me. I didn't feel all big & bad or like John Wayne. I thought he was dead. He deserved to be dead, for trying to kill me, but I didn't like the feeling that I might have taken a human life... even a lowlife human's life. IMO, normal people don't feel that way. The cops showed up. My tenants backed up my story. No charges were filed against me, though I did file charges against him. But I will never forget how my heart raced and how bad my kidneys hurt from how scared and hyped up I was that day.
Here's a story that I heard about. This man, I have so much sympathy for. He was forced to do what he clearly did not want to do. This could have been me or my dad or any (sane) friend of mine. And from what I've read, he has been totally devastated by having to do what he did. Sad. Really sad. I feel NO such sympathy for this George "Barney Fife" Zimmerman though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xeDf...eature=related
My attitude toward (good) cops is a respectful one. No wonder so many of them become alcoholics and get divorced. The bad ones, I have no use for. But the people who just want to play cop... carry the gun, the flashlight and wear their little tactical sweaters, they make me sick. It's bad enough that we have a problem here with home invasions and other violent crimes by gangs. But now you have to worry about your kid getting gunned down by some paranoid wingnut while he's getting a bottle of soda and some candy?
We. Are. F###ed. :(