The purpose of government

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

That is how many governments seem to operate, so what is your point?

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My point is that governments should operate as I said, not as many governments do.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Why should they, some here would say it is there- right - to do with their own as they please.

Society gets nothing, only the chosen get a hand-out. That is what religious organizations had the lead in until governent screwed it up.
People gladly gave to charities but once the feds started taking it and giving to their chosen few, many people said to hell with it, I am not going to give once and have it taken from me once.

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Those same people here think it doesn't matter how you became to own what you own. For them it's OK, even if their wealth came from slave trade or Nazi gold confiscated from Jews.

In my opinion, and I'm talking about the UK here, I believe the following two definitions apply.

1 - The People.

The people of the UK want their elected Government to protect and respect their rights. This may be the right to live in a peaceful society, the right to healthcare, the right to a fair and stable economy, the right to basic welfare for those that need it.

2 - The Government (and opposition).

The Government's role is to maintain power and prevent the opposition from taking power. There are some idiological people within Government that have the intention of representing their constituents but ultimatly, the collective Government will do whatever it must to increase power.

We need a Government but it's impossible to have the Government we need.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Property Rights are not the basis of power.

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What is power without something to control?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

"Power" in the philosophical sense is the ability of an entity to control either its circumstances or its environment and/or the circumstances or the environment of other entities.

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Control is the ability to dictate when, how, why things happen. That means that someone has the power over a posession.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Issues such as the rights freedom of thought, conscience, religion and free speech also fall under the ability of governments to exert control, but whether or not you want to include intangible property in this really blows open a much broader range of issues.

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Aren't your thoughts, conscience, religion and speach your posessions?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Why do you think that the act of governance limited to national or provincial governments? Doesn't Corporate Governance fall under your definition of government? If not, why not?

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No corporations are corporations, and therefore not governments. Same with your football club, it's a club not a government.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

From the US Constitution:

Article One: Legislative Power
Article Two: Executive Power
Article Three: Judicial Power
Article Four: States' Powers and Limits
Article Six: Federal Power

Five of the seven Articles of the US Constitution explicity deal with power, who controls it and what they can and can't do with it. In fact "property rights" in the tangible sense are only even briefly touched on in the Fifth Amendment. If the vast bulk of the very document which defines the operation of a government, deals with the subject of power and its application, then doesn't that suggest something?
What is the US Constitution mainly concerned with if it isn't power?

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You state that the articles are about power. Yes, you are correct. But the powers to do what? The powers the legislature/executive/judicial/etc. has to control your property.

The US Constitution is all about limiting the ability of the government (particularly the Federal Government) to control private property.

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Originally Posted by Starter

That is very poorly thought out. You're assuming some sort of graduated tax I believe. If that's the case it's just wrong. An even tax rate is the only reasonably fair tax. If I make more than you I pay more on a one to one ratio. Graduated taxes want the better off person to not only to pay more but to pay it at an ever increasing rate. That is theft plain and simple.

A flat tax is the only form of an income tax that even pretends to be fair.

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Poorly thought out? Look at Finland and statistics in virtually every field. We have a graduated tax and our society is more equal than most. Partly because we pay taxes based on income, we have the world's best education system, working health care, no slums etc etc... and what is very important, the gap between the poor and the rich is smaller than in most countries. When you have that, you avoid all sorts of problems which affect the well-off as well.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Why should they, some here would say it is there- right - to do with their own as they please.

Society gets nothing, only the chosen get a hand-out. That is what religious organizations had the lead in until governent screwed it up.
People gladly gave to charities but once the feds started taking it and giving to their chosen few, many people said to hell with it, I am not going to give once and have it taken from me once.

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When the chosen get a hand-out, the society avoids all sorts of problems. You know, I gladly pay more taxes so that the poorest don't have to suffer from lack of quality education or health care, for example.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

The reason for government is really very simple. It is to protect personal property rights.

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Could you define what those property rights are?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

What is power without something to control?



Control is the ability to dictate when, how, why things happen. That means that someone has the power over a posession.



Aren't your thoughts, conscience, religion and speach your posessions?



No corporations are corporations, and therefore not governments. Same with your football club, it's a club not a government.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You state that the articles are about power. Yes, you are correct. But the powers to do what? The powers the legislature/executive/judicial/etc. has to control your property.

The US Constitution is all about limiting the ability of the government (particularly the Federal Government) to control private property.

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yes, but you are still talking about power, and the differences between various governments in the past and present, USA and the world over, has been how that power has been used or not used (or has been limited)


Is it being used to protect your personal property, to keep you safe at night, or it is being used to drag people off to extermination at concentration camps? It is a question of freedom vs. control, of rights to do something v. the power to prevent you from doing something.

Even the Declaration of Independence was about power over rights, and the abuse of same:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Well I'm getting a lot of what I expected. Loads of "high minded" opinions on how government should do this, and how they should do that. But no one has seriously address the question I've asked. What is the reason to have a government? What is at it's core?

The reason for government is really very simple. It is to protect personal property rights. That's all. The very core of all laws should always be looking at ways to protect personal property.

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1) Start a thread asking for an opinion, without offering your own.
2) Wait for opinions to roll in.
3) Dismiss those opinions as being wrong.

Blinding.

You wonder why I didn't bother contributing? I could see it coming a mile off.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Could you define what those property rights are?

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Legally owned property is yours, you have the rights to do with it as you see fit, as long as that does not interfere with another's property.