Should the military always be loyal to the government?

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

No. They should always be loyal to the country and nation.

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It is a double edged sword tho. The President of the US is the commander in Chief. If you are in the miltary, and you carve up your boss in public, you should resign. That is a way of being loyal to the country while still submitting to the chain of command. The whole point of Military discipline and authority in the US is based on answering to your superior officers. IN this case, you if you are not willing to submit to that authority, you don't ignore him, you tender your resignation. If enough people believe you, then you will resign and he will look the bad guy, not you. In this case...I think there is a lot of belief in that...

But if everyone who believes him resigns then there would be a mass awol as inlisted personel can't resign from the milatary.
I agree he should tendeer resignation however to let everyone who believes as he does then I feel the milatary would become depleted as far as personel goes.

George Washington was the greatest president this country has ever had, and none, NONE come close to him by carparison.

Indeed, he was the greatest leader of a democratically elected government that the world has ever seen and his presence puts Winston Churchill in the shade.

Not only a great president, but a great leader who constantly exposed himself to grave danger during the war...


But one fundamental precept he held most dear that makes him stand out above all others and completely separates him from all other revolutionary leaders throughout the history of mankind.........demonstrated by actions such as in the Ides of March.....

Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country.



Words that were greater in impact upon this country than anything you will find in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution or the Gettysburg Address


:up:



That should end this feeble discussion and this thread should close.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

George Washington was the greatest president this country has ever had, and none, NONE come close to him by carparison.

Indeed, he was the greatest leader of a democratically elected government that the world has ever seen and his presence puts Winston Churchill in the shade.

Not only a great president, but a great leader who constantly exposed himself to grave danger during the war...


But one fundamental precept he held most dear that makes him stand out above all others and completely separates him from all other revolutionary leaders throughout the history of mankind.........demonstrated by actions such as in the Ides of March.....

Gentlemen, you will permit me to put on my spectacles, for I have not only grown gray but almost blind in the service of my country.



Words that were greater in impact upon this country than anything you will find in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution or the Gettysburg Address


:up:



That should end this feeble discussion and this thread should close.

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I don' t think I could make a case to say you were wrong from an impartial seat up here...

Washington's only real flaw is a reliance on Alexander Hamilton, who seemed to love raising taxes and wielding the power of the central gov't a little too much. Maybe he was a Pelosi in training...lol

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I don' t think I could make a case to say you were wrong from an impartial seat up here...

Washington's only real flaw is a reliance on Alexander Hamilton, who seemed to love raising taxes and wielding the power of the central gov't a little too much. Maybe he was a Pelosi in training...lol

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Hardly call that a flaw, and to compare hamilton to pelosi is a huge insult to hamilton and comparsions to that the old .......from San Fagisco who is unworthy of being even mentioned in the same breath as hamilton.

Hamilton was an illegitmate from the West Indies, who as a self made man, became a colonel for Washington at the age of 20 due to his battlefield heroics, and whose assistance greatly contributed to winning the revolution. He was very loyal to Washington and beleived in an almost monarchy type of government...indeed, quietly urged Washington to be that "king" but washington did not heed that advice..........

He did establish the necessary mechanisms for a central government that have lasted to this day, he was a founding member of the first anti slavery society of any importance, and on and on....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

It is a double edged sword tho. The President of the US is the commander in Chief. If you are in the miltary, and you carve up your boss in public, you should resign. That is a way of being loyal to the country while still submitting to the chain of command. The whole point of Military discipline and authority in the US is based on answering to your superior officers. IN this case, you if you are not willing to submit to that authority, you don't ignore him, you tender your resignation. If enough people believe you, then you will resign and he will look the bad guy, not you. In this case...I think there is a lot of belief in that...

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Ceausescu was also the supreme commander of military forces. In 1989 he ordered the army to shot the people who demonstrated in the streets against him. Do you think that betraying the dictator and being on our side was wrong?

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Originally Posted by markabilly

Words that were greater in impact upon this country than anything you will find in the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution or the Gettysburg Address


:up:



That should end this feeble discussion and this thread should close.

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You may not have noticed that this thread was not about THAT country, but in general and Finland in particular.

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Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Ceausescu was also the supreme commander of military forces. In 1989 he ordered the army to shot the people who demonstrated in the streets against him. Do you think that betraying the dictator and being on our side was wrong?

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In the Romanian situation it certainly was the right thing to do. But in a polarized country, where about 50% support one thing and the other 50% support the opposite, it could be more tricky and mean a bloody civil war.

I just read that 55% of the Finnish professional officers would like Finland to join the NATO and 75% of the Generals think so. Majority of the Finns don't want to join the NATO, so in this case the highest military personnel aren't on the side of the majority of the people.

Funny thing, but the result of that poll looks like 55% of the officers and 75% of the Generals are crap and think they can't do their job without outside help.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I just read that 55% of the Finnish professional officers would like Finland to join the NATO and 75% of the Generals think so. Majority of the Finns don't want to join the NATO, so in this case the highest military personnel aren't on the side of the majority of the people.

Funny thing, but the result of that poll looks like 55% of the officers and 75% of the Generals are crap and think they can't do their job without outside help.

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No...what is says the Finn's fear the Russians more than any other possible invader.

Doesn't matter what they think. The Elected government makes that call now doesn't it Eki? That is the whole point of this thread. The Military leaders can have their opinion, but as long as they don't put their names to it or try to advocate policy in a public forum, they are entitled to have it, but they have to follow their "Boss"...in the US's case, the C in C. McChrystal, even if he was right, was wrong to say what he said in an article with is name attached to it in this manner and he had to go, either by resignation or firing. He knew that too....and he did it because I think he is fed up with the dithering in Washington. Obama has the opposite idea of what Harry S. Truman said. President Truman had the sign on his desk saying "the Buck STOPS here". Obama has one saying "the buck starts passing here"....