My thoughts about different classes

that i want to say about the costs is that if you downgrade a N4 as it is nowadays(dogbox/topmounts/antirollbars/33mm/fuels)is going to be much more worse for drivers with ''small' budget.
Example is Pech,Asi,Kajetan,Salo,Ketooma,Aigner etc.
Is there anybody who beleive that even with 33mm a subi/evo is faster than a s2000?Don t think so.
All the above drivers why they choose subi/evos this year ?(and previous)

Cause of budget.
if these subi/evos were ''cup'' editions do you think that Pech,Asi or Kajetan could be faster than s2000?Don t think so.
So isn t it better with a 1/3 of cost of a s2000 to have drivers with lower budget to have the chance over s2000 crews?

Dont think that if Pech/Asi etc were behind slower drivers with s2000 cars will save the rallying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]And his car was often broken anyway :)

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Mirek to be fair,we cant ask for better reliability from an almost production car, instead from another that have been designed from a blank paper for rallying and with 3ple cost.
i think that if we could count reliability between them,we are not going to have big differences.And you have to count the cost of course.

The point of N4 should not be to be able to compete with S2000 but rather be a cheaper class of it's own for those who want to step up to 4wd without insane budgets. IMO.

EDIT: On the other hand, reliability is of course an issue and if the original components can't cope with rallying and thus failing all the time and/or having to be replaced, thus increasing the cost of running a season to a level near that of the current N4, then it's of course pointless.

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Originally Posted by dimviii

Mirek to be fair,we cant ask for better reliability from an almost production car, instead from another that have been designed from a blank paper for rallying and with 3ple cost.
i think that if we could count reliability between them,we are not going to have big differences.And you have to count the cost of course.

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You still compare with S2000. Ok, why not but in the same time we should look also back. We're still making much bigger and bigger the gap between previous step and N4.

I don't have any problem with production cars as they are now but I think that there should be 4WD class below them. Like it was proper gr.N years a go or those cup cars now.

Today's N4 are more like A8 so why not call them A or whatever and let them together with S2000 but aside of really cheap gr.N 4WD cars.

It's too easy to compare with overpriced option (S2000). We should compare at least with cost of Gr.N few years a go. They grow every year. And I can assure You that Pech doesn't run his Evo for 1/3 of Kresta's Pug. Pech has to change 2-3 diffs, gearbox or clutch every rally (sometimes all in one event), had already 4 times damaged head gasket etc. It's far from being cheap at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze

]You still compare with S2000. Ok, why not but in the same time we should look also back. We're still making much bigger and bigger the gap between previous step and N4.

I don't have any problem with production cars as they are now but I think that there should be 4WD class below them. Like it was proper gr.N years a go or those cup cars now.

Today's N4 are more like A8 so why not call them A or whatever and let them together with S2000 but aside of really cheap gr.N 4WD cars.

It's too easy to compare with overpriced option (S2000). We should compare at least with cost of Gr.N few years a go. They grow every year. And I can assure You that Pech doesn't run his Evo for 1/3 of Kresta's Pug. Pech has to change 2-3 diffs, gearbox or clutch every rally (sometimes all in one event), had already 4 times damaged head gasket etc. It's far from being cheap at all.

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Mirek try to understant that if you make them cheaper they are going to breakdown.All championships are not in asphalt.The rules changed cause of reliability issues.To spent 60000 euros instead of 80000 euros for a new car that is difficult to finish you are not going to gain something.Only retirements with a slower car.
Of course Pech is running with 1/3 of cost even if he changes 3 times more diffs from Kresta.
Example...
diff evo 9 ralliart rear 1200 euro
diff evo 9 ralliart front 1600 euro.
drenth dog-box evo 9 10000 euro
do you want to compare with peugeot 207 s2000 prices? even fabia ones?
Just write the prices for these spare parts.
There are other parts like shaftdrives that the cost is 5 times more.
Do you know how it cost in an evo all the back ''axle''?(ie accident)
10 times cheaper than the cheapest s2000.

how much is the cost for a NEW ONE s2000? isn t 3 times more than a new evo9-10?Aren t light used s2000 cost 250000 euros?

Pech has to change every rally diifs? why? they are serviceable with 100 euros.Something wrong you have informed.Not problem at all,just inspection every 2-4 rallys(dox and diffs)Engine for hole year without disassembly.After a year just new pistons/gaskets/metals/valves with less than 2000 euros.
Turbo every 500 ss km (depents how hard antilag you have)All these are in high level of driving with championship aims.With lower ambitions you can finish a hole year without opening a fresh dog box/diffs/engine.

About head gasket something wrong is running. when you don t know how much you have to tighten the head bolts,or you using ''wrong'' gasket,or extreme turbo pressure you are going to have gasket issues.There are other evos(all almost) without the problems you are reffering.


About recent gr N beeing like gr A i dont agree.
When you install in a production car brakes front/rear stiffer antirollbars,a dog box and balljoints topmounts you dont have an Gr A.
Gr A has only the headlights same as the production car.

So the bigger gap from previous years N4 is something you can t fix cause of reliability issues.
to downgrade them is plenty steps backwards,except that thousants of them are going to loose their value.
Do you think that all these drivers can buy s2000,or that they want to retire in almost every rally they have participate/pay?

How would I decrease reliability by running no ALS, lower turbo pressure or standard fuel? I don't speak about differentials or gearbox but about waste of money into engine which is expensively upgraded and than restricted which is against any logic ;)

What I said about diffs and gearbox is that than they wouldn't need to be designed for 600+ Nm, nothing else.

About Pech I said how it goes with him. What's the reason for that really? Who knows, maybe they don't run proper gr.N car. You never know when there is a car built by same people who check it later...

Even now you can run lower boost,in national championship you can run unleaded normal fuel are not against the rules.
Even with normal fuels and no antilag you are going to have reliability problems with gear box and diffs if they are not uprated.
The dogbox and diffs are not there due to antilag/or racing fuels.That i am trying to explain with my poor english mate.
Antirollbars/topmounts/33mm yes they are there for speed.But do you think that 3500 euros is a problem for somebody who spents 100-200-300k euros per year?
But somebody who can push a N4 like Pech/Asi etc why he don t have the chance to do it with a lower cost?
You think that if he could afford a s2000 he wouldn t buy it?
Or is it good for the sport to see Pech behind Petak cause of money talks?

dimvii, please, You're still answering something I don't speak about. My point is completely different...

I speak about rules and particularly about engine rules which are wrong for gr.N IMHO... simply:

We are allowed to invest in big upgrades and special fuel X We have to use tiny restrictor

-> we are spending a lot of money but get very small gain in real performance


I don't speak about S2000. Please don't put it into my mouth.

all categories running racing fuels.It is not only for N4 cars.
It s pointless to ask for normal fuels in N4 when R2 class is running expensive fuels.
which are the big upgrades in engine you have to invest for running racing fuels or antilag?Engine is COMPLETELY normal.
without restrictor you can t control the power,and this is something that fia doesn t like for many reasons(and it is right imho)
so small power is for a reason.And there is the point that in conversation we HAVE to count s2000.
When we talk about regulations it is not indepented from lower/higher groups.You have to count all of them in terms of competetive/costs.

Normal engine doesn't have racing ECU, ALS or optional turbo.

In my opinion racing fuel is nonsense in rallying where every engine is anyway restricted, isn't it? There is no point in using 5x or more more expensive fuel for gain in performance which can be done by bigger restrictor which is a change which cost nothing. But that's question of entire system, not only one class, of course.