Zee Germans could join zee auzzies??

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I am not a big fan of the Germans going down under. The Aussie V8's are special and unique, and I look at what level of racing I see from there; and I wonder why BMW, Audi or MB might make it better? I dont think they will. Australian racing is the closet to NASCAR in the type of spectacle and culture, and I think the DTM is just a different breed altogether.

I would love to see a world series of Touring car if IF they do this, but I don't know how the logistics and economics could work. Have maybe 8 super events and have regional series that host them. Bathurst, Clipsal and Melbourne would be no brainers in the Australian Series...but not sure how it would all work.

I like the Aussie series as it is....simple as that. Don't need it DTM'ed...I think the DTM's are just not as much fun. You don't see the aggressive and close racing that happens down under as often in the DTM.

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From 1960 to 1992/93 our series was open to all comers, it was only from 1993 that other makes (who were tipping in big $$$) were turfed in favour of the Ford/Holden V8 formula, so really adding more makes is just going back to what we had. I personally think it is way overdue.

Australia was part of the WTCC in 1987, infact we were the only country to have two rounds (Bathurst and Calder)

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

I like the Aussie series as it is....simple as that. Don't need it DTM'ed...I think the DTM's are just not as much fun. You don't see the aggressive and close racing that happens down under as often in the DTM.

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Unless the new technical regulations will be radically different, the only way I see V8 supercars becoming remotely like the DTM series is presence of German manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Wiki Magic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch...nwagen_Masters
The cars are supposed to be fast and spectacular, while still rather cheap to build and run. All DTM race cars have RWD and 4.0 L V8 engines which are air-restricted to 470 hp, no matter if similar layouts or engines are available in the road cars. Instead of the road car bodies, unrelated purpose-built chassis are used, which are closer to prototype racing.

Apart from the badge on the front, the cars in the DTM share zero components with those on the road. Their floorpan dimensions have remained static since 2000 and even the chassis they sit on, across cars are dimensionally identical.

In comparison, the V8 Supercars chassis are derived from the road car, though the VE Commodore has had chunks cut out of it. The truth is that V8Taxi racing shares more in common with the road cars than the DTM.

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The key point is that DTMs weigh over 1000kg (V8SC = 1350kg ??) and pretty much all the drivers say the cars are akin to single seaters.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

How about the DTM's own website then?

http://www.dtm.com/reglement_t.php
The outer skin of the DTM racing cars, which get their brawny stance from aerodynamic bodywork, consists of high-strength but extremely lightweight carbon fibre – the universal material in professional racing. Composite materials are used in the area of safety as well. Safety structures similar to a Formula 1 monocoque and crash boxes made of carbon as well as approximately 28 metres of high-strength aircraft steel as a space frame ensure “workplace safety” for the drivers.

Nothing like opinion grounded in fact eh? I'd say that there was a word for that opinion... "accurate".

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Of course. But it's still not a prototype.

THIS is a prototype
http://www.niot.net/blog-images/23_A...race-debut.jpg

The majority of GT1 cars in the mid-late 1990s were really prototypes, based on Group C cars. They were GTs because of the stupid homologation rules.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Of course. But it's still not a prototype.

THIS is a prototype

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Under who's definition?

The OED defines a prototype as being the first or original pre-production example. The cars raced at Le Mans are in no way pre-production examples; therefore some other definition must be employed.

Care to give us one?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Under who's definition?

The OED defines a prototype as being the first or original pre-production example. The cars raced at Le Mans are in no way pre-production examples; therefore some other definition must be employed.

Care to give us one?

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Ergh Rollo, why do you always take definitions so seriously?

I dare you turn up @ La Sarthe in June and tell all the P1 and P2 guys that they're not running prototypes :laugh:

Now I take your point that the DTM cars aren't exactly production based but the DTM cars are probably more like GT1 cars than prototypes. I fear you've got NASCAR and DTM mixed up or something.

Here's a DTM car and its road going cousin just to refresh your memory :)
http://www.canim.net/araba/images/au...m_155-1024.jpg

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Originally Posted by Rollo

How about the DTM's own website then?

http://www.dtm.com/reglement_t.php
The outer skin of the DTM racing cars, which get their brawny stance from aerodynamic bodywork, consists of high-strength but extremely lightweight carbon fibre – the universal material in professional racing. Composite materials are used in the area of safety as well. Safety structures similar to a Formula 1 monocoque and crash boxes made of carbon as well as approximately 28 metres of high-strength aircraft steel as a space frame ensure “workplace safety” for the drivers.

Nothing like opinion grounded in fact eh? I'd say that there was a word for that opinion... "accurate".

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Oh and I forgot to say that IIRC WRCars have a carbon fibre crash structure built into the door and they also have strong cages too. Are they now prototypes?

I never said that DTM cars are production based, anyone with half a braincell knows they're not. But they're not prototypes if we use the true motorsport definition.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Now I take your point that the DTM cars aren't exactly production based but the DTM cars are probably more like GT1 cars than prototypes. I fear you've got NASCAR and DTM mixed up or something.

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Actually a GT1 car is based off a production car, where as a DTM car is not. Undernearth the skin of a DTM car is a specifically produced frame which bears no resemblance to the road car at all. A GT1 car is one of which at least three examples have been produced for the road.

A DTM car from a construction point of view shares more with a NASCAR than a GT1 car. Once you remove that bodywork, you could in theory put another shell over the top, as you might do a slotcar; you can't do that with a GT1 car.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Ergh Rollo, why do you always take definitions so seriously?

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Definitions lead to proof, proof leads to fact, fact leads to truth. Else you have the dark side... which leads to hate, hate leads to suffering... suffering leads to the fridge, which leads to creme caramels.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Actually a GT1 car is based off a production car, where as a DTM car is not. Undernearth the skin of a DTM car is a specifically produced frame which bears no resemblance to the road car at all. A GT1 car is one of which at least three examples have been produced for the road.

A DTM car from a construction point of view shares more with a NASCAR than a GT1 car. Once you remove that bodywork, you could in theory put another shell over the top, as you might do a slotcar; you can't do that with a GT1 car.



Definitions lead to proof, proof leads to fact, fact leads to truth. Else you have the dark side... which leads to hate, hate leads to suffering... suffering leads to the fridge, which leads to creme caramels.

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*sigh*

So because there are 3 Gt1 cars made for the road they're nothing like DTM cars even though they're both actually very similar in practice. I see.