R-Classes News

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Originally Posted by navtheace

Will be interested to hear more on this.

As there is much talk about GpN / R4 becoming the top class of the WRC by the people involved in and with the FIA discussions going on.

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I don't get it...how could it be the top class if WRC1.6T are already confirmed?

And how will GpN/R4 atract manufactureurs if there's a need to build 2.500 cars for homologations purposes (that was the main reason to european makes leave Gr.N)?

With all the fuss that rally regs are involved since 2007 there's no need to change the actual orientation of WRC1.6T, maybe only if it'll be confirmed the introduction of costly systems like hydraulic transmission or direct injection it would be wise to create a "Light" derivation from WRC1.6T, with mechanical transmissions and detuned engines, suitable to regional and national series.

And these WRC Light category could be easily renamed R4...

There are talks about making it the top class and phasing S2000/S1.6T.

This is mentioned on another forum http://wrc.rallye-info.com:80/forum/...2&t=99&start=0

Ok, but from which stock cars would You make them? Impreza, Lancer and?

I had a look at that other forum thread and must admit there seems to a body of people knowing about it. Jean Todt is a different character to Max Mosely, and maybe there is merit in becoming closer to a standard car. What I am concerned about though is why trick manufacturers into going S1.6T if its to be short lived? Surely, and considering its August soon, with only Ford (allegedly) having run a 1.6T engine in the Fiesta whilst Citroen still test a de-tuned 2.0 C4 engine, why cant FIA say, 2011 - 2013 is S2000, (PSA can run a 207 engine in the DS3, or even a 207 car, Ford the current Fiesta as run by most of the S2KCup lot, plus it allows Skoda a way in) Then allow the N4+ R4 to be introduced as the top class. We would all welcome cheaper rally cars, provided they were entertaining as well.
IF, this R4 thinhg is true its going to pi$$ off Citroen and Ford, unless of course they want it........
Hardly encouraging for VW, Toyota etc if the shifting sands of the tech specs still change on a daily basis.

In the end I think that it doesn't really matter what cars WRC have but there must be firmly guaranteed set of rules for at least five years, better for a decade.

Not only is it about lower cost of a top end WRC car.

It's the ability for anyone to build the car as self build just like GpA & GpN was all about.

From what I have heard, R4 will just be an easy modification from N4. For example, plastic side and rear windows, 34mm restrictor, excess metal brackets inside the boot and rear passenger permitted to be removed like the non used rear seatbelt brackets, along with many other 'no cost' modifcations.

Of course that sounds nice but there is big BUT since there are very few suitable stock cars for making Gr.N of them (virtually only Impreza and Lancer) Developing completely new car and setting production line for serial production is huge deal for which new manufacturer needs to spend billions at the start.

A special car made out of cheap stock model like current S2000 has high-unit cost but there is no expense in new stock development and production.

In my opinion S2000 way is much more accessible for new manufacturers because with Gr.A cars most of them would need years and billions to spend in new stock models. It's the bigger problem as most of them has no experience and no know-how in something like sport-usable 4x4 systems etc.

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Originally Posted by navtheace

It's the ability for anyone to build the car as self build just like GpA & GpN was all about.

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Gp.A was replaced in mid 90's by WRC cars because no european manufactureur (besides Ford Europe) could cope with the need to produce thousands of higly expensives special homologation street cars.

Nowadays, beside prohibitive industrialisation costs (there's a finantial crisis going on...), environment issues (like Co2 levels) will certanly failled manufactureurs interest to be involved at a 2.500 special homologations process in order to enter the world championship.

So, and after Ralliart leaving annoucment, will R4 make sense knowing that probably will be a one make (Subaru) series?

Let's face it guys: S2000 was (is) a great concept, allowing big and small makes to easily produce exiting and affordable rally cars, and it's perfect for WRC, regional and national use, somehow like the unforgetable Gr.2/4 cars of the 70's.

Even so, and with effective cost control, WRC1.6T could be a reasonable S2000 evolution, as long Mr. Todt manage to restrain Mr. Quesnel "overbudget" ambition to keep Citroën's WRC supremacy.

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

So, and after Ralliart leaving annoucment, will R4 make sense knowing that probably will be a one make (Subaru) series?

Let's face it guys: S2000 was (is) a great concept, allowing big and small makes to easily produce exiting and affordable rally cars, and it's perfect for WRC, regional and national use, somehow like the unforgetable Gr.2/4 cars of the 70's.

Even so, and with effective cost control, WRC1.6T could be a reasonable S2000 evolution, as long Mr. Todt manage to restrain Mr. Quesnel "overbudget" ambition to keep Citroën's WRC supremacy.

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I almost totally agree with your statement. Cost is the most important thing in the whole issue. But don't forget that a current Gr N is a very cost-effective car: a lot of speed for less money.

5 years ago there was a good idea in Australia: let manufactures who don't have an N4 showroom car build a kit to make a car N4-alike (there was a corolla with a 2.0 turbo). That is IMHO the best solution: keep subaru's and mitsubishi's and add other manus based on a kit with almost the same spec (4x4, weight, power, brakes, ...). Base the kit on a kind of standard (like current X-Trac, ... for S2000) transmission, turbo and maybe other components. Maybe rallying will be affordable again at all levels.


Sorry for my English, hope you get the idea!

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Originally Posted by HaCo

Cost is the most important thing in the whole issue. But don't forget that a current Gr N is a very cost-effective car: a lot of speed for less money.

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Full Gr.N cars aren't cheap either, but less developed versions are obviously appealing at a clubmans level.

We all agree that a global cost-effective 4wd turbo category (with a large number of standart components and without expensive homologation process) would be the ideal solution for worlwide rallys, but we've already spent almost 4 years finding it, so there's little time to look back after last year confirmation for the 1.6T S2000 based cars.

Unfortunely after that confirmation 1.6TS2000 has become more WRC detuned versions than upgraded S2000 cars, with predictable raising levels of cost and technology that smaller makes won't cope, causing everyone the feeling that in 2 or 3 years will be another time facing a 1-2 makes wrc challenge...

That raising levels will also be prohibitive for national championships teams, so again will have a WRC pinnacle category unfit for national/regional use, and a urgent need to create a new base category, not only to replace N4 models, but also S2000 cars, strangly put aside from 2011.

With all these mess perhaps WRC future isn't bright, so at leats let's hope future R4, or however it'll be named, could interest a larger number of manufactureurs in order to develop national and regional rallys, the true basis of sport.