California Budget

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Originally Posted by ioan

FGS people, you live in a tax haven compared to Europe, stop crying so much.
If paying 1% more will make your and others life easier than just eat less donuts, it will make up for the difference and you'll be healthier too.

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Ioan..that is why they don't live in an overtaxed socialist hell like parts of Europe. Americans refuse to pay through the nose for crap government services. They don't like paying any tax. It is how their country was founded. The American Revolution in the beginning was basically a tax revolt.

It is why what is happening in California and Washington is so sad. The country that gave the world such thinkers such as Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin; all who were for less government and the princpiles of self reliance is now turning into an overtaxed socialist state, much like the states many came to America to escape.

When the Canadian government looks like paragons of thrift compared to the American governments on tax and spending, you know there is something seriously wrong in the US of A.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Americans refuse to pay through the nose for crap government services.

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So do us Europeans, we pay for good government services instead.

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Originally Posted by ioan

FGS people, you live in a tax haven compared to Europe, stop crying so much.
If paying 1% more will make your and others life easier than just eat less donuts, it will make up for the difference and you'll be healthier too.

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Look up the Laffer curve. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve

The Bush tax cuts in '02ish proved that we were on the right side of the curve. That means that more tax CUTS would probably result in more tax revenue to the government, unless those cuts put us right at the peak of the curve. Basically it boils down to, if you tax people more they will either hide their money or produce less.

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Originally Posted by Eki

So do us Europeans, we pay for good government services instead.

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You pay for them alright. France pays for them, and they have a chronic unemployment problem. Sweden pays, and yet has some of the higher rates of suicide and depression in the world. The UK pays, and has waiting lists and the government dictating healthcare and rationing it.

You can pay for "good government" but it isn't always as good as it seems. Not saying there isn't room for some social network, but in the US of A, they are paying for a lot of nonsense when the government is telling everyone they must pay more, while government never cuts and makes allowances for the poor economy.

It is one thing to pay taxes for services. IT is another when the government takes more of your money than you do.....

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

You pay for them alright. France pays for them, and they have a chronic unemployment problem.

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It could be even worse without government subsidiaries and infrastructure building jobs, etc. Many third world countries have much higher employment rate even when they don't have high taxes (or much of an infrastructure for businesses and highly educated workforce that the tax money provides for that matter).

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Sweden pays, and yet has some of the higher rates of suicide and depression in the world.

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I've heard that lack of sunlight in the winter can cause depression and suicides in the northern latitudes, but never that taxes could. What I've heard is that most of the Swedes, just like most of the Finns are quite happy with their taxes and how their tax money are spent.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

The UK pays, and has waiting lists and the government dictating healthcare and rationing it.

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I don't know about the UK, but here we have an alternative for public healthcare, if you can afford it. It's called private healthcare.

The principle here is that the society and the government provide the minimum and you yourself provide the extra on top of that.

It's quite funny that some people can trust their money to some stock broker but not to their government.

I have no idea how efficient the Govt. of Finland is.
But I do know how many total screw ups there are in Canada.
A 1 million dollar gun registry that has cost over 1 Billion and is rife with errors. I can also assure you there are thousands of long guns unregistered.
Nuclear Power projects with cost overruns of triple estimates. The latest is something like 5 years overdue and billions over budget and the bloody thing won't even work. Now cancelled.
An admitted Human Resourses Project that cost the tax payer over one hundred million of unaccountable expenditures.
Payments to a golf course in the Prime Minister's riding of millions from a "slush fund" that the head of the fund opposed. He was fired and the Govt. (of the time) got nailed for wrongful dismissal.
Recently in Ont. several untendered contracts to people closely connected to the party in power exceeding the limits. Consultants getting huge payments ($30,000) for 13 hours work and then charging for chocalate bars! Untendered contract. This was under a special consultant process to computerize our health care records. They seem to have accomplished zich in 13 months they have been working on it. The head was let go with a payment in excess of $300,000. The process under the Dept. has actually been in the works for over 10 years with very little accomplished!
Admitted uninvestigated fraud in the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commission Lotteries. Retailers of Lottery Tickets winning far too often. Nothing done until it got out!
Govt. inefficiancy is rife in Canada in most if not all Provinces as well as federally. And it doesn't matter which party is in power.
I suspect (note suspect) it is there in Finland to.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Nuclear Power projects with cost overruns of triple estimates. The latest is something like 5 years overdue and billions over budget and the bloody thing won't even work. Now cancelled.

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Our nuclear power plant project is late at least three years, but it's not a government project, it's built by a private energy company. But to be honest, most of the delay is due to subcontractors failing to meet the strict safety requirements required by the government.

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Govt. inefficiancy is rife in Canada in most if not all Provinces as well as federally. And it doesn't matter which party is in power.
I suspect (note suspect) it is there in Finland to.

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There's never just one party in power in Finland. There are always at least four parties in the government. And they watch each others like a hawk, so there are probably less opportunities for misconduct than in a one party government.

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Originally Posted by Eki

It could be even worse without government subsidiaries and infrastructure building jobs, etc. Many third world countries have much higher employment rate even when they don't have high taxes (or much of an infrastructure for businesses and highly educated workforce that the tax money provides for that matter).

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Third world nations don't have the resources to build the infrastructure. It is why I always laugh when people say labour costs are the determining factor on where industry builds. If that was so, India would have been an industrial superpower a long time ago before now, and most of Africa with it.

Government subsidies and incentives are good ONLY if they are carefully applied and given to companies with strict guarntees....my god we almost see eye to eye on that one.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I've heard that lack of sunlight in the winter can cause depression and suicides in the northern latitudes, but never that taxes could. What I've heard is that most of the Swedes, just like most of the Finns are quite happy with their taxes and how their tax money are spent..

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Canada has the same lack of light and we don't get up there in our suicide rate with your Swedish friends across the Gulf of Bothia. The Swedes are said to be the most highly taxed nation in Europe, although I have to think the French are right there. ARe they happy? Maybe....

I do know Canadians and Americans have a different culture ethos and are from a frontier society that was much more individually driven. People here came with nothing and built this country because they wanted a fresh start and no boundries. Now in the modern era, people want that freedom while craving a safety net. The trick is to never make that net so cushy people never want to leave it.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I don't know about the UK, but here we have an alternative for public healthcare, if you can afford it. It's called private healthcare.

The principle here is that the society and the government provide the minimum and you yourself provide the extra on top of that.

It's quite funny that some people can trust their money to some stock broker but not to their government.

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I trust the stock broker, he gets a cut if he does well for me. The government has no incentive ( my vote isn't enough and hasn't been historically). As for the healthcare, in Canada believe or not we are not ALLOWED That choice unless we take our cash and go to the US. The running joke in the US is if they take up a public healthcare system like Canada's, us Canadians will fly overseas to get that better care.

On Healthcare, I think you Finn's got it closer to the mark. The real reality though is the US is much the same, despite all the rhetoric. It just is there the medical system would rather you go broke before you got a nickel from the government. There is healthwelfare in many states tho. It is why I think most Americans don't want Obama to go that final step.

Eki...the thing is most government run healthcare systems, whether it be here, the UK or Cuba, ration out healthcare when the costs go up. There is a waiting list for some procedures here that are done right away in the US. Where the Yanks have an issue is the malpractice insurances and the scare doctors have. They tend to do far more tests and unecessary work to cover themselves against malpractice.....and THAT is where the high cost is coming from.

Eki: We have 4 parties fedrally and 3 in most Provinces but the screw ups continue.
Fedrally the Conservatives form a minority govt. Most of the discovered foul ups occurred during a Liberal majority, but not all.
Currently Ont. has a Liberal majority.