The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Respect is earned, not given on demand.

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And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?

Again, I ask why you are so rude? I suppose your last post explains why, in a way.

I had asked you before politely to explain your immediate dismissive dislike of myself, and as yet you have not been courteous enough to reply, so please, if you are talking about respect, should you not lead by example?

As of yet, you yourself have not done anything to earn it, yet I am polite enough to be respectful in my request and response. From what I understand you have just said, you do not think I should be respectful until you have earnt that privilege?

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?

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It's called 'real life' isn't it?

This is a F1 forum, not a platform for the Respect party. Nobody has been rude but you seem to take exception to anyone with views that differ from yours?

As for Kimi, he contributed to 3 titles in 3 years. That's pretty impressive and surely as a Ferrari fan, something you should respect also?

Now, in 2010, we have Alonso and he's a passionate, emotive man. I can see the appeal of this type of character for Ferrari and their fans but at the moment, he is not really delivering. This years car should be fighting for the title and on paper is superior to the McLaren.

If I was a Ferrari fan, I would be asking questions about why the results are poor when the drivers have such a good car rather than disrespecting the most successful Ferrari driver since Schumacher.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

And , his ice cream episode showed a driver uninterested in his team , and was a perfect example of why Alonso is infinitely better for the seat .

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Surely, the existence of said ice cream vending machine in the Ferrari garage was for team use, right?

Why would a driver, having an ice cream, supplied by his team that he is part of, mean he is disinterested?

So, by your reckoning, Alonso does not 'do' ice cream I suppose?

:crazy:

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

And this is the forum policy or just your opinion?

Again, I ask why you are so rude? I suppose your last post explains why, in a way.

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I don't believe I have been insulting or rude in my responses to you at any point, and the same applies to any member on this forum since I have been here. It is my opinion that respect is earned, not given on demand, and I believe to be a generally accepted opinion. I do not speak for the forum or its policy. That's for the moderators to do.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

I had asked you before politely to explain your immediate dismissive dislike of myself, and as yet you have not been courteous enough to reply, so please, if you are talking about respect, should you not lead by example?

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I received a PM from you. There has been no "immediate dismissive dislike". However based on your posts during the time since you have signed up to the forum as pallone col bracciale I have reached a view. That view, and previous experience, means I will not be responding to PM's from you. Nor will I be responding further as this has become all to familiar, and another thread will probably end up being closed.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

How do you know whether he had passion or not? You judged him based on what you consider to be "passion", what is considered passion in your culture.
Kimi's problem at Ferrari was cultural, that's pretty evident.

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Ferrari judged that he was not worth it .
In fact , he was paid to leave .

Of course they believed he was quick , as he would have received a lesser amount , had he raced somewhere else in F1 .

He got them a title , but they still paid to get rid .

They certainly were passionate about seeing him leave . That's how passionate Ferrari were .

He was called lazy , not passionate .
And , my culture has nothing to do with it .
Perhaps his culture does , but it's largely irrelevent .
He was an ice-man in a hot , passionate team .
He fit into the car but didn't fit into the team .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Ferrari judged that he was not worth it .
In fact , he was paid to leave .

Of course they believed he was quick , as he would have received a lesser amount , had he raced somewhere else in F1 .

He got them a title , but they still paid to get rid .

They certainly were passionate about seeing him leave . That's how passionate Ferrari were .

He was called lazy , not passionate .
And , my culture has nothing to do with it .
Perhaps his culture does , but it's largely irrelevent .
He was an ice-man in a hot , passionate team .
He fit into the car but didn't fit into the team .

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Trouble is, his replacement may well have the 'latin' spirit Ferrari cherish, but thus far he has shown only that he cannot handle the pressure without assistance, and that he is way too accident prone.

As I pointed out before, Kimi has the last laugh here.

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

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Originally Posted by eu

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

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The Ferrari fans bashing ex ferrari drivers thread?

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Originally Posted by eu

Shouldn't we change the title of this thread now?

"The Ferrari bashing thread" would be a good choice. "The Ferrari fans lynching thread" would be another one. "The Anti-Ferrari mob thread" is not bad either.

I find the attitude of some, especially a group of british members rather disappointing.

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I don't know, I think most people, me included, like Massa so it's not so much anti-Ferrari, it's more like anti-Alonso. Alonso came into the team under quite extraordinary circumstances where his sponsor paid a WDC out and he was supposed to be the Messiah and he isn't. Isn't it pretty logical that people start criticising him?

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

Schumi did better than Alonso with a much worse car, that was my point, which surely an intelligent bloke like you understood.

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:D

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

I don't know, I think most people, me included, like Massa so it's not so much anti-Ferrari, it's more like anti-Alonso. Alonso came into the team under quite extraordinary circumstances where his sponsor paid a WDC out and he was supposed to be the Messiah and he isn't. Isn't it pretty logical that people start criticising him?

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If it wasn't for himself whining and talking himself up and then failing miserably none of us would criticize him so much, but he is how we all know him so...

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

The Ferrari fans bashing ex ferrari drivers thread?

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Ex-Ferrari fans bashing the Ferrari pay driver would be spot on for me! :D

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Trouble is, his replacement may well have the 'latin' spirit Ferrari cherish, but thus far he has shown only that he cannot handle the pressure without assistance, and that he is way too accident prone.

As I pointed out before, Kimi has the last laugh here.

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Fernando did not ask for assistance .
He made an attempt .
It was too close to risk .
His team judged it so as well .

His team-mate was told by his team that he was holding him up and balked twice at the suggestion he should give way .

Fernando then proved outright that he was , indeed , faster , and Massa could do nothing about that fact .

Felipe and Smedley then petulently protested , making it so obvious as to get thier team punished with a fine and a seat at the WMSC tribunal .
Smedley was pushing Felipe to be quicker but it just wasn't there .

If he could have shown he was capable , you might have a case for Fernando being favoured .
Sadly , for both you and Massa , he wasn't capable of lapping as quickly .

And , if Kimi was indeed laughing at Ferrari's misfortune , it goes a long way to showing why he never fit in the first place .

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I don't believe I have been insulting or rude in my responses to you at any point, and the same applies to any member on this forum since I have been here. It is my opinion that respect is earned, not given on demand, and I believe to be a generally accepted opinion. I do not speak for the forum or its policy. That's for the moderators to do.

I received a PM from you. There has been no "immediate dismissive dislike". However based on your posts during the time since you have signed up to the forum as pallone col bracciale I have reached a view. That view, and previous experience, means I will not be responding to PM's from you. Nor will I be responding further as this has become all to familiar, and another thread will probably end up being closed.

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Thank you politely for your reply.

I am not whoever you think I am, so I kindly ask you to apologise for your misplaced rude attitude.

Grazie mille.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Fernando did not ask for assistance...

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Wrong! He was crying over the radio about Massa.

I agree with you that Alonsita was faster than Massa, but I'm not sure why Fernanda couldn't pass him on the track without Ferrari management manipulating the outcome.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Thank you politely for your reply.

I am not whoever you think I am, so I kindly ask you to apologise for your misplaced rude attitude.

Grazie mille.

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Enough already!

His opinion is his.

Nothing rude in what Arrows posted.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

if Kimi was indeed laughing at Ferrari's misfortune , it goes a long way to showing why he never fit in the first place .

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Nay, nay and thrice nay. Not laughing at misfortune at all. Laughing that the replacement is fairing no better.

Kimi's stay at Ferrari resulted in a WDC. Something that Ascari, Fangio, Hawthorn, Hill, Surtees, Lauda, Scheckter and Schumacher managed.

He was with Ferrari for three years, during which the team won two WCC's.

A fairly successful period I'd say.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Enough already!

His opinion is his.

Nothing rude in what Arrows posted.

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Again, harrassment from you.

I have asked you politely now on numerous occasions to stop but it is quite clear you are simply a bully in a playground.

It is not your forum and you are so important here to tell other people what to post when they are being courteous .

I ask politely.

You and your friends do not act politely or friendly or in a manner which allows you any superiority over the rest.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Again, harrassment from you.

I have asked you politely now on numerous occasions to stop but it is quite clear you are simply a bully in a playground.

It is not your forum and you are so important here to tell other people what to post when they are being courteous .

I ask politely.

You and your friends do not act politely or friendly or in a manner which allows you any superiority over the rest.

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You can ignore me.....

Guys...let's move on or this thread will be closed and a couple of you will be banned for a month ! Also please stop posting comments about members identity, Feedback Forum is the place for that! Don't let me ask this again...

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Wrong! He was crying over the radio about Massa.

I agree with you that Alonsita was faster than Massa, but I'm not sure why Fernanda couldn't pass him on the track without Ferrari management manipulating the outcome.

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He did not cry .

He said "ridiculous" .

And , indeed it was , that Felipe would risk both the Ferrari cars as Alonso made his move to take the lead after Felipe was told that Fernando was faster the first time .

Massa is a mouse , and Ferrari knew he was back-footed enough that he might react poorly in any passing attempt by a team-mate getting the better of him .
And , they were right .
He was told by his team that Fernando was faster in three separate transmissions .
In the first , he closed the door , prompting the "ridiculous" statement .
Then , the second transmission and subsequent refusal prompted Fernando to drop back and prove his point by catching up his team-mate at will .
The third time prompted a humiliated Felipe-baby to pout and , encouraged by his nurse-maid Smedley , proceed to drop his team in it .

Felipe needs to try to play the role the team has decided he must , and to try to act with a bit more class .
A pout only goes so far in the pirranha club .

Drive faster , or try to be a touch more dignified as a number two .
Unless the car is yards ahead of the rest , a number two is necessary , in most cases , for success .
Everyone , pretty much has to do it at some time , and some never leave the role .

A solid number two can win you a championship , and I believe that is what they hired Felipe to be , essentially , because they never expected him to be as fast as Fernando .
They were right .

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Originally Posted by henners88

If Fernando really is vastly superior in terms of being faster then he should have taken the challenge to Felipe in Germany IMO. On their day they are both fast and we saw Felipe out qualify Fernando at the weekend.

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Now wouldn´t that be great? Especially since we know that Alonso´s overtaking attempts on Massa in the past never ended up in collisions... Why would a McLaren fan want that really? I wonder

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Originally Posted by eu

I have nothing against Kimi but overall, his 3 years at Ferrari are less then impressive and McLaren is doing much better since he left too. I was delighted when he won the title in 2007 but that was only because McLaren were stupid enough to fight against their better driver... and even in Brasil when it was up to him Massa had to slow down to let him win.

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Here we go again ,,,,,,?

Kimi's time at Ferrari was actually one of the most successful compared to the majority of Ferrari drivers. During his first two years he won almost 26% of the races he entered which is a very high percentage - it was the last season that saw him become totally disaffected with the team and disenchanted with f1 because of the horrible F60 and f1 politics.

Although at the track he ruled during his time he did light up at Spa and win. Since then despite ALL its efforts Ferrari have won only two more grands prix - less than stellar.

Thats Kimi - when he does not have a car that is a winner he loses the motivation because he does not race to make up numbers. This is the attitude of a champion.

And in 2007 at Interlagos, there is nothing wrong with Massa letting Kimi through - this is a team and the object was to clinch the championship. This has always been done in f1, including with drivers such as Fangio, and it is both right and proper.

If Kimi does have a failing it is also not his attitude at Ferrari because Niki Lauda always hated the emotional side of Ferrari - it is that his capacity for working towards making the car is low because he has no interest and therefore he also has no method and so without good testing skills, through choice, a team flounders.

This is vastly different to previous Ferrari drivers like Lauda and Schumacher who loved the challenge and JOINED Ferrari because that challenge existed at the time.

This is not a McLaren thread so I will just remind that Ron Dennis of ALL people, apologized to Kimi about the situation at Woking because he recognized and we all know, that the team let Kimi down with reliability and had it been a better team - which it is actually today - then the Finn would have won more races and definitely the 2005 world title.

Who is Kimi? He is a very underrated driver unless you take the time to actually study him. And in my view it will always be with deep regret he was at least not at Spa last weekend as the reigning Spa-meister that he is.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't take pleasure in seeing anyone crash out, and I like Felipe so seeing his race ended in a silly move would be less than desirable. I like to see hard but fair racing, who doesn't? :)

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Like a driver will ALWAYS be happy when he sees a rival retire during a race, I am also always happy when that happens and benefits the driver I support.

But of you mean actually CRASH! - then of course like all racing fans I do not want a rival driver to be injured or worse. But if he crashes out and it is not something serious enough to injure then I love the sight!

ALLS fair in both love and war!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."


Which is what I said a month ago.


BTW, I practice law. If I had to defend Ferrari I would have used the same defence stated in the report.


If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.


Scusi, I should have said that if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.

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Weird logic! Why would the FIA not want to face Ferrari in a court of law?!

Do you believe that a court of law would not see that Ferrari have broken the rules?

BTW, Ferrari should think about how the ones involved in a legal action in a court of law are risking to go to jail in case they try to lie like they did to the media after the German GP!

The conclusion is that Ferrari have everything to lose in case they start a legal case against the FIA and Todt and his good friend Mosley are more than aware of this.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."

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Ha! Nothing is going to happen to Ferrari. Todt doesn't have the balls to take away championship points from the grid's most illustrious team. I think that Ferrari should be banned from the next race, but that's not going to happen. All Ferrari are getting is a slap on the wrist.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

A solid number two can win you a championship , and I believe that is what they hired Felipe to be , essentially , because they never expected him to be as fast as Fernando. They were right .

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I guess you didn't watch the Belgian GP. ;)

There is a very tricky situation that exists ahead of tomorrow which is why there is literally a TEAM of legal people in Paris from Ferrari.

First of all it will not be a court of law and therefore there is no oath taken. This allows people to change their story or explain what happened and primary in this is both Massa and Smedley.

The basic question is whether both the above indivividuals wish to continue working at Ferrari beyond 2011.

At the foundation of the issue rests a teams right - and a we are all aware, this is unalienable and is not compromised by the rule set out by the FIA.

This will too be argued - and it is deliberate that the rule has this loophole.

Additionally there is the issue of strategy versus team orders - which can this be categorized as?

Another issue is why the rule is in place to begin with? Proper fans understand what has always occurred and why it does in racing. Casual fans react emotionally and are swayed by the press.

Unfortunately the motor racing media are of the recent generation in many cases and react emotionalistically.

If the reaction of fans is the reason for the rule - then the rule is not pertinent because undermining the right of Ferrari as the rule does is morally and philosophically incorrect. The fan does not count in this regard because it cannot as they have no right to anything in motor racing. They are outside observers - regardless of anything.

And everyone in f1 understands this which is why there was been essentially tepid reaction from pitlane. Clearly people such as Horner, Brawn and Whitmarsh would like to see a significant modification of this incipid and obnoxious rule.

I think that is what will occur and will make those who love and cherish this magnificent sport happy not to have another civil war break out.

It is also pertinent that this hearing is occurring literally a couple of days ahead of the Italian Grand Prix, not by accident - it sends a signal that the issue will be dealt with reasonably and without upsetting the new strong man in f1, Luca di Montezemolo.

Ridiculous notions of banning Ferrari or acting in draconian fashion towards the team is not probable.

It is like the story of King Solomon and the two women each wanting the baby for themselves - the one that really loved the baby did not want to see the child destroyed.

And so it is with fans. Those who love and cherish f1 strongly desire not for Ferrari to be hurt, but for the rule to be altered to take account of strategy as well as recognize the right of racing teams.

Tomorrow not only Ferrari will be the affected party, but so will ALL in f1.

Damn it STD. You write a whole essay to say two things:

1) Team orders, bad.

2) Ferrari, good.

Anyone that believes Ferrari should be punished - should then start revoking MS's championships. !

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

...if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.

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That suggests an implied thread of sorts on Ferrari's behalf and assumes that they would not accept the WMSC's ruling should it go against them though doesn't it?

As a team, and organisation, which has signed up to the FIA F1 World Championship and, by implication, agreed to its rules and regulations, for Ferrari to resort to civil court action and challenge the FIA's authority in this way would have serious implications.

Martin Whitmarsh recently said, when asked if a breakaway series was still an option, "I think it is an option, but I think the sensible thing is for the parties to co-operate and not fight."

Here are one moore who has studied law for six years.

If Ferrari take the decision from the WDSC to a civil court they will bring the sport in to disrepute.

Which, by the way, they already did with this whole matter.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

At the foundation of the issue rests a teams right - and a we are all aware, this is unalienable and is not compromised by the rule set out by the FIA.

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What unalienable right is this StD? As an organisation any rights exist in relation to the country of origin and then further the country in which they choose to conduct business - an organisation while it can be received at law as an individual is not recognised as such when it comes to 'unalienable rights' these are simply granted through specific legislation in individual countries. Further Ferrari have decided to compete in a competition through their own volition rather than through sheer force.....provided that all materials set before them in the signing of the contract are upheld and no specific legislation to be found in any relevant country is the FIA can set whatever rules it so wishes - the only argument which may be potentially argued is that the FIA have impeded Ferrari's rights at law to free trade......this would be incredibly weak and the chances of succeeding in a civil matter challenging any ruling would be difficult. Note of course the decision last yr concerning Briatore and Symmons and the subseuqent civil case where the issue at hand was not the WMSC's ability to set down such a ruling but rather the process undertaken in doing so

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Damn it STD. You write a whole essay to say two things:

1) Team orders, bad.

2) Ferrari, good.

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:D well in order to arrive, sometimes the journey is long!

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/86456

"Some suggestions have pointed towards a harsh punishment for Ferrari – which will include both drivers and team losing their points from the German Grand Prix. Should that happen, then it is likely the matter will head for the law courts."


Which is what I said a month ago.


BTW, I practice law. If I had to defend Ferrari I would have used the same defence stated in the report.


If the FIA do not wish to face a legal action in the civil court, then they will not find Ferrari guilty of anything.


Scusi, I should have said that if the FIA do not wish to lose a legal action in a civil court, then they will have to find Ferrari not guilty of anything.

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I respectfully disagree.

As previously stated, I hope there is no further punishment imposed on Ferrari by the WMSC. I believe that blatant team orders were imposed as did the Stewards at the meeting in question. It is also my opinion that the WMSC will find the same and deem Ferrari Guilty but I feel it is counter-productive to punish them further and spending time sorting out this unsuitable piece of sporting legislation would be more appropriate. However, there is little doubt that Ferrari are guilty of not only imposing blatant team orders but arguably bringing the sport into disrepute by doing so.

Now, my opinion of how this should be handled has nothing to do with what the WMSC will actually do. They may decide that there is insufficient evidence and reverse the Stewards penalty. I think this is very unlikely but if it does happen then Ferrari will leave the hearing completely vindicated and guilty of nothing apart from informing Massa in a very strange way that Alonso was faster than him....

This is the most unlikely outcome IMHO. What is more likely is that they might hit Ferrari with a draconian penalty but suspend it for a year or 2 to ensure Ferrari don't dare do this again. The Stewards will be justified, Ferrari will have been found guilty and punished while Ferrari will have to keep their noses clean.

What is coming out as the most likely outcome is that the WMSC will remove points from the drivers and/or team in further punishment.

If anything apart from the first scenario happens then Ferrari will be found guilty and if they feel unfairly judged, can attempt to clear their name by going through the courts.

They will not do this and I will put money on it because if they do, they will lose.

Why?

Because the WMSC will call Rob, Filipe, Stefano, etc to swear on oath that there was no team order given in the coded radio transmissions.

Do you think they will all perjure themselves over this?

Of course, they might decide to appeal if they are innocent but that's where our difference of opinion exists. If they are found guilty, which I am confident they will, I bet they don't appeal. Do you think they will and if you're so sure, I'll take your money off you in a friendly wager. After all, you're the expert in this and I'm just a noob taking a punt :)

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

:D well in order to arrive, sometimes the journey is long!

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You've been chatting to Sting again, haven't you?

Nudge nudge, wink wink, know what I mean.......

;) :D :laugh:

Punish all the teams , or change the rule .

That's how stupid this is .

It's a team sport , but everyone has seemingly forgotten this .

Or , perhaps they can just ban the phrase "Driver X is faster than you ." so it can't be used again .
I guess they used that wording in Melbourne , too , but Felipe didn't have the same reaction . He didn't let Fernando past .

So , my opinion has Ferrari pointing to this , and since Felipe was petulent enough in Oz , it will show them that , indeed , it was his decision to yield to his team-mate .
He made two different decisions when told the same information at two different times .

They escaped whitout further penalties.

Why aren´t I suprised.