another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

Anonymous steps in: Anonymous Hacks Westboro Baptist Church Over Threat To Picket Sandy Hook Vigil

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Oh it's "the government's fault" that this happened is it? Can you provide any evidence for this at all?

No, the American people are broken and badly so.

Let's just look at the aspect of war shall we? Even if you use the most expansive estimates, a total of 90,800 people have been killed to date as a result of the two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. In that period the number of people killed in the United States due to guns has been about 140,000. Who are you supposedly protecting yourselves from? Other Americans?

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Where did I once say it was the government's fault OR that government regulation was the solution?. I argue exactly the opposite. The government should stay the F out of a lot more than they do. They can't legislate morality, and they have certainly failed in their attempts to do so. At present, our defacto two party system is incapable of enacting any meaningful, effective or enforceable legislation. Face it, they just aren't. Our goventment IS broken and that comes straight from a broken society, something I think we both agree on. People are friggin morons. Ever seen Idiocracy. It's a horrible movie, but it highlights a frightening reality. We are creating lazy friggin morons. I now have to compose government regulations and correspondence at a friggin 4th grade level. 4th Grade.

MORE gun legislation is not the answer when they can't even enforce the legislation on the books now. They could start with UNIFORM regulations, but then uniform regulations aren't always the best answer and SCOTUS has recently ruled many local gun regulations violate the 2nd amendment.

I teach my kids morality. I don't rely on the goventment, nor should I. I also teach my kids to defend themselves the most effective way possible. Both kids have learned Krav Maga. Both kids are more than merely proficient with firearms, and both kids are aware of their surroundings. I don't live in a "bad" area. Quite the opposite actually. Far more like the town in Connecticut than not, yet things happen as we have seen. I am protecting myself period.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The Constitution itself has been amended another 17 times on top of the original 10. It already happens.

Of course legislation should be amended to suit current conditions. Are we to assume that you still think that slavery is acceptable too? It took 76 years and a war for the American people to work that one out and another five years before you gave black people the rights to be citizens after they'd been slaves.

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And one of them happened to be a total reversal of an ill advised attempt at a blanket prohibition based on morality.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I'm getting quite a reasonable idea from some of the contributions to this discussion, believe me, though this won't stop me finding it unpleasantly alien and, in the supposedly modern, civilised world, inexplicable.

It beggars belief, as far as I'm concerned, to suggest that films and video games are primarily at fault. You're just searching around for excuses, scapegoats and ways of avoiding the real issues. Films and video games are not the problem; on occasion there may be warped interpretations of them, but this in itself is not reason to legislate. There's enough prurience and over-caution about what's 'suitable' for people to watch and not watch as it is. And it is also legitimate to ask whether or not these forms of entertainment have their roots in a society that's violent enough in any case. These things don't exist in a vacuum.

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Again, I do not advocate altering the First Amendment that protects freedom of speech any more than I advocate altering the intent of the second amendment. We have made changes to the constitution and we have undone changes.
I do advocate self control and self regulation by Hollywood and society in general. We agree, society has its ills. So we need movies, videos, books and video games to glamorize them? In this country we have a saying regarding the media, "if it bleeds, it leads". That is friggin horrible, I don't care who you are. We generally don't watch broadcast news in my house because of that. If I need weather, I watch the weather. If I want sports, I consult the sports outlets. You want to know where our soldiers are going to attack next, watch the friggin news. They'll tell you. Just because you HAVE the a protected right in this country dosesn't mean you HAVE to exercise it just to push the envelope, but I would NEVER argue with outright restriction of rights our country was founded upon and the founders felt were so important as to put them into the document that frames our country.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And why is that, do you think? Might it have something to do with the underlying attitudes to firearms possession and ease of purchase?

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Most criminals don't walk into gun stores and buy guns. They legally can't actually. I have owned firearms since I was 10 years old. I've actually never lived in a home that didn't have firearms, and I've never had problem purchasing them, even being a life long resident with some of the strictest firearms restrictions in the US., yet I've never robbed, beaten strangled or raped a soul. I still cannot legally carry a firearm on my person, concealed or otherwise except for hunting. It remains virtually impossible to obtain a legal CC permit in my state. I am subject to a background check and a mandatory waiting period to purchase a vast number of firearms. I am subject to a state check on the purchase of ALL firearms. I also respect restricting felons and those with proven diagnosed mental defect. I accept those restrictions despite believing they are infact, infringements on guaranteed and protected rights.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

...and ease of purchase?

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Watching the evening news last night I was shocked to learn that the rifle used in the school killings was available for purchase from Walmart on-line :s

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

.... I still cannot legally carry a firearm on my person, concealed or otherwise except for hunting. It remains virtually impossible to obtain a legal CC permit in my state. I am subject to a background check and a mandatory waiting period to purchase a vast number of firearms. I am subject to a state check on the purchase of ALL firearms. I also respect restricting felons and those with proven diagnosed mental defect. I accept those restrictions despite believing they are infact, infringements on guaranteed and protected rights.

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That sounds very reasonable nigelred5. If other states mandated similar legislation it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

However, do you honestly believe that restriction of firearms to both convicted felons and the clinically mentally imbalanced is a violation of their rights? :s

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Originally Posted by schmenke

That sounds very reasonable nigelred5. If other states mandated similar legislation it would certainly be a step in the right direction.

However, do you honestly believe that restriction of firearms to both convicted felons and the clinically mentally imbalanced is a violation of their rights? :s

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Do I believe I should automatically forfeit my rights because I am diagnosed with depression? I'm not, nor have I ever to be perfectly clear, but even a single situational DX would disqualify me from owning a firearm. If I check Y, I'm done. That isn't totally right IMHO. If I check N and I'm being untruthful, that's jailtime.
Convicted Felons by law forfeit several rights under federal law, one of which is gun ownership. SO, if someone were convicted of tax evasion, punishable by more than 12 months in prison, that person has just invalidated their ability to ever own a firearm. where is that any indication of a tendency towards violence? Violent offenders, No problem. It's hard to know where to draw that line, which is the problem with legislation.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Do I believe I should automatically forfeit my rights because I am diagnosed with depression? I'm not, nor have I ever to be perfectly clear, but even a single situational DX would disqualify me from owning a firearm. If I check Y, I'm done. That isn't totally right IMHO. If I check N and I'm being untruthful, that's jailtime.
Convicted Felons by law forfeit several rights under federal law, one of which is gun ownership. SO, if someone were convicted of tax evasion, punishable by more than 12 months in prison, that person has just invalidated their ability to ever own a firearm. where is that any indication of a tendency towards violence? Violent offenders, No problem. It's hard to know where to draw that line, which is the problem with legislation.

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Which is why many countries take the line of members of the public not being permitted to own guns - at all. Much easier.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

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Convicted Felons by law forfeit several rights under federal law, one of which is gun ownership. SO, if someone were convicted of tax evasion, punishable by more than 12 months in prison, that person has just invalidated their ability to ever own a firearm. where is that any indication of a tendency towards violence? ...

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It demonstrates a tendency to blatantly violate laws.

I would go so far as to suggest that the single background check be validated on a regular basis; a mandatory update every couple of years (or is this already the case?).