People Power

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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Well, I'm glad someone pursues it, otherwise instead of having internet discussions with people who live halfway around the world, we'd just be sitting around a campfire making plans to raid some other clans hunting grounds and/or how to steal their women :p

Ah good stuff here Rollo. Sorry I haven't been online for a few days. So sorry to drag this back up.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Why does giving government freedom scare you then?
Somewhere in this discussion is the question of governance and power.

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Government power scares me because there is little recourse if you find yourself on the wrong end of that power. The Founders of this nation knew that, all too well. That is why they set up a very limited government with enumerated powers they were not to exceed.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I find it a little strange that you object to government having a degree of governance and power when government can and should be held accountable because the executives of government are elected officials.

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But once you get to the national level of government, the individual has VERY little power over those in the government. I have two Senators out of 100, and 1 Representative out of 435. I can vote for the best people ever, but if others do not, my voice will be over-rulled everytime.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Whereas you have no problem at all when governance and power sits with largely unelected officials (in the context of broad society) making decisions in the corporate world.

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Are you speaking of beaurocrats? If so I have a HUGE problem with the number of them, the scope of their influence over our society, and their lack of accountability.

Or are you talking about CEO's and such. If that is the case, then I have lot's of say over them. I do not buy their products, and they loose some profit. But it's not much you say. But it is to me.

A "bad" company is not forcing money out of my hands that I choose not to spend. However, "bad" government has the ability to force me to hand over money. See the difference?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

The decisions of Wall St have far more of a degree of actual influence on people's livelihoods. How much responsibility should be laid at Wall St for the global financial crisis, and/or when the decision is taken to shift production plants to different cities or countries, the corporate world takes no responsibility whatsoever for the people's lives that its just ruined.
All praise the corporate world, give them freedom. Yet at the same time restrain governments?

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Wall St might have too much influence over people's livelihood. But I would say that had they not been propped up that things would have been more painful at the time, yet recovery would have been much quicker.

Yes restrain government! That is the lesson to be learned from history.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Oh I could do the same job, I'm perfectly aware of that thanks.

You missed my point though or I suspect you did get it but refused to answer.

The fact is that the financial sector is disproportionately well paid to the extent that it skews local and national economies.

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Why is it any of your business what they get paid?

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Originally Posted by Malbec

In your country and mine it is now state subsidised and partially state owned at great cost to the entire population. Yet it still carries on behaving the way it did with impunity in the way that got it into great trouble in the first place.

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They continue to behave as they did before, becasue it was clearly demonstrated to them that there are no consequences for their behavior. The solution was not to bail them out, but to allow them to fail.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

Do you not think that major reform of the financial sector is necessary to make it more accountable, and to reduce the impact it has on the economy when it goes wrong due to mismanagement?

Your debate with others on whether the free market is a good thing is missing the point IMO.

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Allowing the free market to work (allowing bad business practices to be punished by failure) would make people fairly accountable. Your debate position that government must fix everything is dangerous and will lead to worse issues in the future, IMO.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Not being a money-obsessed ****?

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That is fine. You are completely within your rights not te be a money-obsessed ****. I am not either, I have turned down chances at being about one step below filthy rich myself because I made a consious decision to see my family.

But what business is it of yours if someone is a money-obsessed ****? Why should you allow that to bother you?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Give me an example, then, of how the increasing dominance of large chains on the high street promotes individuality and variety from one place to the next.

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Apple. Apparently they are the height of "individuality", according to some.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

The '****hole' in which I live is Berlin, and near me there is what I call a dynamic range of fresh, anything but bland shops — almost all independents rather than large chains. This is my idea of the description, not a high street made up of Starbucks, McDonalds and a load of big supermarkets. I would suggest you are too over-awed by the marketing hype, not least of Virgin.

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Did the free market make this possible? Or did the government step in and decree it to be so?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

In the pursuit of wealth or profit how much is enough :confused:

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In the name of "fairness", how much is too much? :confused:

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Government power scares me because there is little recourse if you find yourself on the wrong end of that power.

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And what recourse, precisely, does one have against a large company unless one is in possession of substantial legal resources?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Did the free market make this possible? Or did the government step in and decree it to be so?

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I don't know — except to say that supermarkets do not have anywhere near the same dominance in Germany as in the UK and elsewhere. Whether this is to do with regulations of some form I have no idea.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Apple. Apparently they are the height of "individuality", according to some.

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No-one has said that. I certainly haven't. All I have done is say their customer service, in my experience, is exemplary. A very different thing, unless one reads what one wants into any statement.