Ogier may have started it but he had good reason as Sweden was an exceptional rally. But the others now doing it on a normal rally (and even worse from Rally 2), THAT is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
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Ogier may have started it but he had good reason as Sweden was an exceptional rally. But the others now doing it on a normal rally (and even worse from Rally 2), THAT is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
LOL...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
come in here kids the fun never stops with this one...
It's not ridiculous. The fact that it's possible by rules is ridiculous. Maybe all time penalties for being late/early at TC's should be added to the stage-time before or after that TC, in stead of just adding it to the overall time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Is there any explanation, why is that not a practice now or have always been? Simple solution for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
No one has ever thought it would be a problem? Has this happened in the past before?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
I remember reading, that Hirvonen did it some years back.
what happened is no different than when drivers stopped before the stage end to have a better position for the next day or when burns faked a flat tyre and delayed to start the stage in australia....
we can cry like little sick dogs depending on which driver we support or we can accept it...
we can also follow the auti... (oooops FBI warning)... i mean the british method and stir up the subject every now and then to satisfy our mental disabilities...
This whole issue could have started and ended in Sweden.
If the other Teams had accepted that Ogier/M-Sport's action was a one-off due to their desperation to get some points on a rally where they were basically denied through no fault of their own.
The FIA even asked everyone not to behave like this on the Mexico PS.
But no, Hyundai and Toyota had to act like children in Mexico saying, well if they did it we're going to do it. Even though the rally and circumstances were totally different.
So by your statement it is OK that when Ogier who happens to be the lead driver of the team you support is in a desperation to get points, but when competition is trying to exploit this loophole in a desperation for more points they act like children. Really?? I'm starting to believe N.O.T.'s british autism jokes more and more. What a load of BSQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
This is just embarrassing Eddie sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why should M-Sport be able to get away with something that clearly works and others told they can't do it?
The first line of your post is bang on though. The issue should have started in Sweden with the FIA doing their jobs.
Story in MN yesterday said the WRC Promoter put forward a proposal after Sweden but the FIA didn't act on it. They will discuss it at the next WRC Commission meeting in May! I guess there are a few layers of their own red tape to get through - but I reckon that means we'll have this all again in Argentina next month. Maybe even Portugal if the FIA continue to sit on their hands.
Guarantee you if this was F1 it would have been sorted within a week.
We're not all in this together!Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
I know, just teasing :)Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
I am living a lie kids....Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
LOL LOL LOL....
are you for real ? how can someone be such a basic life form ?
The whole think didn't start in Sweden. Starting order games has been in rally for quite some years. Even if FIA imposes some rules over the PS, the teams can just change the game - how about the cars have some technical "issues"? If we go on like this, the circus grows bigger and bigger. Let it be like this, it'll be forgotten in few months. I'm quite sure all of them have been aware of this rule "cheating", just might be little pissed about Ogier using it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
EDIT: Besides these games are not in favor of manufacturers, not showing their lead drivers on the "best show" during the rally, Neuville didn't gain anything on this possibly Tanak too, the only losers were Hyundai & Toyota. I think next time orders to follow the starting order will not come from FIA or Germany, but from South Korea and Japan.
https://i.imgur.com/Lx2wNeA.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Only an issue with the power stage malarky- make the power stage the first and that solves many problems - only those not in contention will have good road positions on gravelQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
You should know!Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
This put GigiGalliNo1 rumors from servic parks in big shadows and I think it even beats Anttik sending registered mail to FIA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
An oneiric experience.
This isn't an easy problem to fix. Your suggestion would make the whole point of the power stage null & void. The original idea was to bring some excitement to the last day of the rally. Normally the finishing order is sorted out by Saturday night unless something really crazy happens on Sunday. Sunday was pretty dull and number of viewers and spectators declining. Enter the power stage, now teams have a reason to push and it adds extra excitement to an otherwise dull day. If it is moved to Leg 1 of the rally then we're back to "let's-just-get-through-it-so-it-can-be-over" Sunday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
Additionally, points are points and it does't matter what situation you find yourself in, more points are always better than less. So Ogier was frustrated, he lost a lot of time due to running order and his only hope was to mess with the start order on the power stage so he could get some points. A real tear jerker but absolutely no different than winning the rally, or re-entering under rally 2 and doing the same thing on the power stage to get points. One situation is no more or less justified than the other. As long as the rules allow it and the gain outweighs the penalty then people will do it. They may have considered it and held back as nobody wanted to be the first (cause it is unsporting) but now the dam is broken and the only fix is a rule change or it will keep happening.
Do You consider the other way around possibility? - Drivers from the back of the field already have some points from the PS and might risk attacking a bit more on Saturday afternoon & Sunday? Hmmmm.....Quote:
Originally Posted by OHL
No, I don't think that will achieve the same result as current power stage on Sunday. Do I have proof, no, but I don't think teams would risk finishing position points just because they already had a few in the bank. There typically just isn't enough mileage on Sunday to make a real impact on the times with straight driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Every action has many unforeseen consequences and what may seem like a good idea needs careful study to make sure it doesn't just make more problems.
Do you wear a patch or were you born with only one eye?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Coming late PS excludes the driver from points on PS. That´s it. Why so many words?
FIA just didn´t find it out from beginning.
The solution is so simple that I don't understand why it's even debated:
Time penalties for late check-in should be applied directly to the stage time, not the overall rally time. Check in one minute late to a stage, and you get 10 seconds added to your stage time.
The overall penalty doesn't change, but now it's almost impossible to benefit from checking in late. Done. No gimmicks, no additional rules, no special exemptions, no arbitrary and capricious decisions by the stewards, no inconsistency, no misunderstanding or confusion.
They can just come late on the penultimate stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnybobiche
They could even be late on the first stage of the day and choose not to open the road. I'm actually surprised nobody has done that yet.
When you change a rule you have to look at the intent and impact of the rule and then what is the intent and impact of the change. This is why I say it's not so simple. The current penalties for arriving to controls outside allocated time is 10 seconds per minute for being late, and 1 minute per minute for being early. Why are they different? The main reason is to discourage speeding and wreckless driving for a crew that are late to a stage start. If they have a problem from the previous stage or run into a problem on the transit, they have some flexibility and if they are a little bit late the penalty is not so severe. It is intended to help crews.Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnybobiche
In the case of the power stage, where stage time is all that matters, and you implement the fix you have suggested, then you penalize everyone who has a legitimate problem from the previous stage or on the road section. They are instantly out of contention for power stage points and they did nothing wrong or unsporting. This is why it is not so simple and requires looking at every angle. The current rule is there for a reason. It is a good rule, it is just being exploited.
One solution could be to have a regroup before the power stage and announce the start order after all of the P1 cars have checked in. That would cause other issues like a little bit longer day, etc. but it's just one idea.
Just saying, Tanak tried the tricks because, from no fault of his own (as you say of Ogier), his turbo shat itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
This is actually how they do it now. That’s why it’s hugely unlikely anyone would genuinely be late from the power stageQuote:
Originally Posted by OHL
I wasn't clear, what I meant was a regroup at stage start. In Mexico it was 13.5km from regroup to stage start.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I do agree with you that it is unlikely to have a genuine problem but it is impossible to know if someone is having a legitimate problem or not and removing the road section from the equation could help. Of course then the car would magically not start! That's been done may times before too to get an extra minute!
Totally different. A car failure happens, but the rules of a rally are a decision. And Tanak's driving could also have caused his engine problem...Quote:
Originally Posted by steve.mandzij
The FIA are going to stop it now:
https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/ne...erstage-rules/y
Can’t we just get rid of the stupid power stage anyway.
Purists.... does it really make you more excited about rallying?
I think it’s a load of shit..... got NASCAR written all over it.
OK all you geniuses... if not a Power Stage how else can they prevent the Sunday from generally being a cruise snooze and the cars that retired not even running ?
ROFL!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Unbelievable....
I still haven’t understood if you are joking or not
No, but seriously... you cant use a car failure as an excuse to bend the rules.
If someone drives perfectly and does every stage and its for no reward, then they have bit more leeway IMO.
You don't bend the rules. You either break them or not. Simple as that. Just stop crying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Which brings us back to square one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Ogier in Sweden, Tanak and Neuville in Mexico all broke rules... and got penalized.
Just the penalties did not hurt them at all (in case of Tanak and Neuville) or they could calculate the benefits against each other (Ogier, before Evans got sacrificed)).
-------------
So can we stop discussing the facts and instead focus on the issues on the table.
Penalty rules were never modified for powerstage introduction
I bet you would have said the opposite if it happened when Ogier was driving a VW and Tanak a Ford.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Lets be honest, Ogier did it essentially because he didn't like the weather. The rules have been the same every round, sometimes an advantage for him and sometimes a disadvantage. The variable was the weather conditions.
You can't use a lack of pace for that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Ogier & MSport didnt break the rules they used the rules to partly overcome a huge disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Tanak & Neuville and their teams just copied even though they had no excuse or disadvantage.
You have a weird definition of what a fair and unfair disadvantage might be. Doesn't Ogier have an advantage too, of being a fast driver? Maybe it should be allowed for others to sabotage his car. After all, he's put them at a disadvantage.