Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Probably not assuming, but maybe hoping.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
Probably not assuming, but maybe hoping.
Surely all it would take then is for the FIA to issue a press release stating that the rules for 2008 will be tightened up. That way McLaren get what they want (a definitive rule) and we get what we want (Kimi to stay champion as McLaren can then drop this stupid appeal)
What disturbs me deeply with this thread is that there are only a couple of posts that actually ponder reasons why the cars were not punished. And there was and are very good reasons as why they should not be punished.
And that establishes a very good reason for McLaren to file a complaint, because at best the rule in question is too vague to be followed and as it is, it should be clarified.
The rule states that fuel on board has to be no more than 10 degrees cooler than the ambient temperature.
However, the temperature of the fuel on board is not measured, but the temperature entering the car. I am going to assume that there is still some fuel left in the tank and the tank itself must be quite hot. Therefore the fuel immediately heats up at least a little bit when it finds an equilibrium with the tank and the fuel left in the tank. Therefore, the fuel temperature will most likely to be within regulations on board even though it may be a couple of degrees too cold in the fuel rig.
Secondly, it is not estasblished what is the official and correct ambient temperature. The teams are using data given by a weather forecast company while there is a temperature meter somewhere laying in the sun and giving very different readings. And either of them could be used as a reference temperature, because the official temperature is not established.
Therefore, we have no way of telling the fuel temperature on board and we do not know what is the temperature it should be compared to.
Thus, the marshalls made the only possible decision and punished no-one.
So case closed, the verdict will not change, but hopefully FIA will elaborate, what they mean by that rule.
Move on, there is nothing to see here and Kimi will keep his title. Good night.
Very good points, with the exception that if McLaren wanted a clarification, they could have asked for a clarification, which by the way is far cheaper than al appeal ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Juppe
Funny that you have brought this up, because I was thinking about the temperature measurements all morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juppe
First of all, I'd like to know whether the thermometers were calibrated by a recognised scientific standards laboratory that morning before the measurements were taken.
Then there is the very good point that Juppe brought up about where the temperature of the fuel is taken. So I would ask how many readings were taken from the fuel from within the fuel tanks and whether these readings were consistant!
I used to run Soils Testing Laboratories for many years, here in Australia and abroad, and I can verify that even temperatures taken from within an enclosed oven ( used for moisture content determinations) can vary significantly. We had our ovens checked by the standards people (can't remember their name now) and we had to discard some of the ovens that showed variations in excess of around 1.5 degrees C.
Now taking the temperature of the fuel in motion before entry into the fuel tanks would show significant differences from the fuel within the tank. As Juppe mentions, there is some residual fuel in the tank which when mixed with the ingoing fuel could significantly affect the temperature of the total fuel load once the tank is filled. Then, of course, depending from where inside the tank the temperatures are taken, you would get significant variation in the fuel temperatures. I don't remembre seeing anyone from FIA or the stewards sticking a thermometer inside the fuel tanks and taking temperatures at various points within the fuel tanks. This procedure, to provide accurate readings wouldn't take much longer than around ten minutes, so the time factor wouldn't affect the car in the pits that much would it? :rolleyes: I mean he would only lose a couple of places but in a long race over 200 km, this would hardly matter.
And this is even before we go into the subject of ambient temperatures specified by the FOM, which I am willing to bet, nobody bothered to get running temperature checks each quarter of a minute with standard calibrated thermometers for these FOM readings displayed.
A good lawyer with the help of a good physicist or chemist or engineer would shoot down the charges against BMW and Williams in a flash.
it won't matter, even if the FIA punishes Williams and BMW, they can't take away driver points.
Mclaren stole Ferrari documents but the drivers weren't given any punishment, but the constructor was banished for 2 years and a 100 million dollar fine.
Kimi won the WDC fair and square, it was Hamiltons own fault, when Alonso got by, he didn't have to push to get back in front cause he was still champion even if the Ferraris and Alonso were ahead of him.
Absolutely right, Hamilton misses the title because of his own mistakes both in China and in Brazil – it’s the only reason. I think the pressure from English media was too much for him. TV and all the newspapers were giving a picture of their new racing star like he all ready was a world champion. They was pushing him too much and that was creating the atmosphere around him of a "wonder kid" or "golden boy" which made it very difficult for him (after all he was a rookie with his first season in F1 and didn’t have the experience necessary to a champion). :)Quote:
Originally Posted by harvick#1
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63664Quote:
The FIA's International Court of Appeal will hear McLaren's case against the decision of the Brazilian Grand Prix stewards on Thursday, November 15.
According to Max:
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"For us the world championship is over, the result is what it is. A team presented an appeal; at the moment, this doesn't change anything - it's up to them to prove they are right."
You could argue whether McLaren had a right to appeal. They could have protested the result, but they didn't. Apparently they didn't measure the temperature of the fuel. But even if the cars classified ahead of Hamilton would be excluded, would this change his position? The Court of Appeal will have to rule on that."
But they don't want a clarification they want the others to be punished.Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
And they have to reasons:
1. Trying to win the WDC for Hamilton, but it's very unlikely
2. Trying to get more WCC points to offset some more millions from their $ 100.000.000 fine. As it stands they virtually got less points than Ferrari this season and they have to pay in excess of $ 50.000.000 fine. If however they manage to get Williams and BMW disqualified than they will get more points than earlier and they will also have most constructor points in which case there is more TV revenue virtually allocated to them and thus they will have to pay a smaller fine in the end.
So they are not appealing because they want a rule clarification, that's just a smoke screen as they have two way better reasons for an appeal than a mere rule clarification.
Not to mention that they did often seek for clarifications in the past without appealing (Renault's MDS, Ferrari floor beeing a few examples from the last 2 seasons).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinchote
That is very true as well. :)