Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
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Not true, WEC has BOP and Formula 1 has the cost cap. Both are super successful right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
If you're being rude, at least read my complete post. Not my words, according to National Geographic.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Cost cap could work, rallying showed in the past 20 years that BOP is not needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
But if a cost cap of lets say 20 million (Toyota is rumoured to be on 60 million currently isn't it?) would be enough to entice manufacturers is questionable.
No problem, most around here aren't native speakers I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
successful how? are the championships more equal now? have they made anything better in any way?Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
the only things cost caps do is make the teams do creative bookkeeping and outsource as much as possible to get around them. the big teams are still way ahead of the small ones and will always be.
i would like for it to be easier/cheaper go get into wrc somehow, but the reality is that any manufacturer that wants to have a chance to win will need to spend roughly as much as their competitors do.
it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota. which will make toyota spend more if they also really want the title. so in the end the cost to win a the title in a mechanical sport is always the biggest amount of cash any of the competitors is willing to throw at it.
Yes and yes. Both championships are more equal, both championships are more interesting, both championships have more viewers and both championships have more interest from manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Sure, so make it look like WEC few years ago, when no team wanted to spend so much money to beat Toyota, so Toyota were competing alone. That's what you want?Quote:
it's simple. you want to beat toyota, you have to spend as much or more than toyota.
I’m not so much in favour of a cost cap system particularly as like the fella above said, creative bookkeeping can render the cap pointless.
BOP works, whether people like it or not, series that employ it in whatever guise do better in terms of manufacture involvement and participation. F1 can get away without it because it’s F1.
The WEC formula is a good one, the cars have to all go through the Sauber wind tunnel and fit into a Max/Min vales of downforce and drag. Energy usage is controlled and then BOP on top of that if required. The need to spend huge on development is negated simply because the car will either not comply to the pre-set Max/Min values or get BOP restricted to slow it down.
Whatever the new WRC class is to be could use similar principals to keep costs under control.
WRC had much fewer "no hoper" cars in the last 20 years than either sportscar racing or F1. Since 2017 everyone had a winning car bar the post covid Fiesta. In circuit racing this is unheard of and BOP is mostly needed to prevent hopeless developments or include unsuitable cars (think GT3 Bentley by M Sport) but again in rallying no one tried a silly base car since more than 20 years or so. Would BOP change anything at the moment? Would it change anything in future regulations?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
About cost cap: While true that financial "optimisations" can be done and most likely are already put in place by most teams in F1 there is a limit of what they can actually do. Moreover the teams watch eachother like hawks so it's somewhat self policing between them as well. The result, while it's true that Red Bull are dominating at the moment, in fact it is the tightest difference between the first and last car ever. The ATR/windtunnel restrictions and show and tell rules will gradually work to reduce that difference. Also keep in mind that 20 years ago teams were being sold for a nominal $1 whereas now they are worth hundreds of millions going towards a billion. Audi is paying hundreds of millions for 75% of Sauber. If that's not a healthy championship then I don't know what is.
To those that suggest the cost cap is innefective because it can be bypassed I suggest you educate yourselves on how it works in detail. Now if you suggest to me, like an acquaintance recently did, that it's just for show and just a giant conspiracy between the teams the FIA and the 3rd party international auditor and that in fact the cost cap has no effect than I will not reply anymore since I'd rather not waste my time ;)
About BOP: BOP has the effect to limit spending because it stops chasing diminishing returns for increased costs. It's not just to help unsuitable cars in GT3 it's also a hard cap on performance. Yes it takes some budget to get to the reference but afterwards it's a hard limit on outright performance. Afterwards you need to have the best team and execute the races well. Yes it's very political and controversial. Still, I watched Group C fall when it became to expensive, then GT1 then LMP1 Hybrid (not to mention other categories or series). I'd rather have BOP than nothing. Also WEC is incredibly successful. This year there was record or near record crowd at Le Mans with over 300.000 tickets sold out half a year in advance. There are more manufacturers than almost ever. Because so many people want to race in the top category they are having to drop LMP2 from the WEC because they don't fit in the pitlane anymore. This year's Le Mans went down to the last 30 minutes or so between two teams with 5 different manufacturers leading the race at some point on merit. If that's not succesfull I don't know what is.
I'm not saying the WRC needs to take one of these and implement it, they need to find their own way or adapt one of those. But doing nothing will just make it lose out. Again.
How do they run things in america? Look at those Baja and Desert racing. (I know.. "Its different", but its "rally", so just join the ride... haha) They have TONS of entries, and those trucks are TOUGH! No actual manufacturer competing, its just people and teams and OEMs building those machines... I like this concept. Maybe there is something to learn from them? Rally1 cars are already roll cages with engines and aerokits... Can a cultural shift happen somehow? (More people/teams/oems building stuff and selling)