Certainty it wasn't the development what cost that much money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Printable View
Certainty it wasn't the development what cost that much money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Yep, the materials used were the issue. Drivers were begging fans to return any aero that came off their cars during a rally as they cost a fortune to replace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
The Americans are going their own way with this new cost-effective alternative to European Rally2 Cars...
https://www.jrdmotorsport.com/arc2araspeccarupdates
With development and testing help from Marcus Gronholm:
https://rallyjournal.com/marcus-gron...n-the-horizon/
Wow $220 000 (~190k Eur) in gravel spec is really good price.
Around €100,000 less than a Rally2 car.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth
The cost of buying and running a WRC27 will also be too much for many outside Europe. Another missed opportunity for sales around the world.
Then it's basically the promoter's entries. If WRC was a promoter-less cup, how many would we see? None, times have changed for car companies and we don't see them in ERC and nationals like days of old.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
It's because the Return Of Investment is even worse than in the WRC. At the end it is (and was) always about the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
If WRC / ERC would give the manufacturers a resonable Return Of Investment, they would be there.
But now for what? 500 people watching on WRC+ and best case a few thousands on the stages?
I think they made it even worse with completely locked out content thinking that hardcore fans will paying for that, but they achieved quite opposite effect. Many of them become casual fans. Well casual fans wouldn't never pay for that. They would watch the sport live or on some sport channel. And where it's broadcasting, nowhere. At least for the time being when they want to bring fan numbers up again, they could offer something, but they will not. They will probably increase price and show even less content. That's my feeling. I know it's hard to engage new audience since the sport is hard to follow for straight 3-4 whole days, but at east they could try shortening liaison, rally itself or anything which could engage at least someone. If that would work, that would mean they should improving in that direction, if not, they go opposite direction. But I think that in their heads it's a rollercoaster and how less money could potentially they grab.
Would they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
You could say the same if the entrants were energy drinks, horse sperm traders, privateer drivers or WRC2027 constructors.
Not sure what ROI measurement you'd use, but car companies cannot use chucking a car through the forests in adverts to sell cars anymore. Outside the contextualised broadcast of doing the sport, it's useless to them.
I in general wonder what manufacturers get out of motorsport in detail, but since some series are very active in this regard, there must be a ROI somewhere to be had. Hopefully we have some people here to shed some light on thisQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
One of two things: brand recall and associated emotions from the audience, or selling cars into the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
The values associated with WRC aren't in tune with where EU/western politicians and regs are. Which is partly why there are no EU brands doing Rally1.
And as there is nothing in common with the needs of special stage rallying and western regs on what a road passenger car should be, have and do... there's no justification for this link with manufacturers anymore which is why it is, and should be, decoupling.
Funnily enough Liberty have turned the image of F1 around from being a boys club with grid girls to an inclusive sport and it has worked to attract manufacturers. Maybe if, IF, rally cars did look nothing like road passenger cars and some other magical stuff happened around the WRC image, then it could work to attract manufacturers.
Thank you and this really is a conundrum.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Maybe it would help for WRC to go the "safety" route then for road relevance. Where else is a better place to develop all those electronic helpers like ABS than on public roads in race speed
Stupid idea probably though
Here
"an international motorsport series dedicated to electric vehicles competing under real road conditions.
The competition features unmodified, road-legal electric vehicles (including prototypes) approved for daily use and homologated for public roads within the EU.
The series encourages manufacturers to push the boundaries of sustainable automotive technology, making it a real-world testing ground for next-generation mobility solutions.
Competitors are not allowed to make any modifications that would impede these cars from their intended daily use.
Participants race on public roads over 300 to 800 kilometres of varied terrain. Checkpoints are set up where teams are evaluated on their time, speed and energy use."
:p
It's the ultimate rally series for makes, it just suffers with entertainment appeal and publicity.
Regular readers saying 'here he goes again'. I've been banging this drum since before even the FIA got with the beat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Something has alienated Manufacturers from WRC / Rally 1 with no new ones joining since Toyota 10 years ago (and both Volkswagen and Citroen leaving).
But Rally2 has continued to have Manufacturers and new cars built in this same period (Fabia RS, GR Yaris, Lancia Integrale, plus Citroen, Ford and Hyundai still developing their old cars).
What does this tell you ?
Yes and no, we have manufacturers building cars, but not manufacturer teams in WRC2 that pay for everything (to my knowledge not many? None?).
The building cars part seems to be profitable, the runnings teams not so much. Last part compounts in Rally1
It's the combination of many things why manufacturers does make those cars and not run them. More or less they do it at the start when they freshly build the car and then with competing they are boosting sales and when the numbers are right, they don't bother anymore. Also it's the coverage. WRC2 is barely mentioned. If they do run proper marketing and coverage for that category, those brands with not so many budget could easily compete there. Also if there would be like 5-6 brands with official entries, imagine how bad would that be on a image of WRC, since there is only 2 teams and a a half in main category. It could be completely overshadowed. For small brands like Lancia it the perfect to compete there. Also maybe Proton, M-Sport. Skoda could step up, they have unfinished business in the WRC and I think they could do very well. Imagine having battles with Toyota. I clearly see Skoda being on VW level. Hyundai sadly isn't nowhere near and I think it never will be.
Tanak testing the Toyota WRC27 prototype in Finland now...
https://rallyjournal.com/wow-ott-tan...ng-in-finland/
That could easily be fixed. ban the use of carbonfiber for anything not safety related and let them use fiberglass instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Good luck competing with that if you are a team like RMC or RallyOne (or anyone for that matter). At the end they may have a year of testing / development head-start. Toyota will never be beaten in the WRC27 eraQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
That customer rallying is big business and the manufacturers have enjoyed selling cars derived from production models into the sport, and that they don't want to do the sport themselves. WRC2 today has Lancia and M-Sport driven Ford, both fronts for customer racing, not for marketing production cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
What did it all tell you?
Consider this; Hyundai could contest WRC2 with no entry fee, but why would they when they shut down their workshop and didn't ship a car for over a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
There's only Lancia paying to have their name in WRC2. In theory - I wouldn't be surprised if they cut a deal, which is why what comes next year is intriguing. They're also not compelled to do all rounds either and skipped Sweden and Kenya so far, no such luxury for WRC27 constructors.
I really, really, wonder how next year will pan out. Since it's only half a year now roughly until and we have not seen even one other WRC27 car.
Either we will have Toyota dominating or BOP'ed out of contention.
it's such an imbalance between Toyota and the other teams, how did we even end up here
And dominating or not, my god is this car boring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou4T-lotbl0
Rally3 are more exciting...
This Youtube shorts video takes it together:
https://youtube.com/shorts/pv5jVIZab...7XprL0FSgZuKQN
And we still don't know what the situation be in WRC field. Those with WRC27 cars will pay higher fees, need to contest all rounds, and those with Rally2 will have cheaper and doesn't need to contest all. How that is competing alongside? Also if they will demand to Rally2 or WRC2 (if it will be around at all) to contest all rounds, many of them will not sign up for championship, since it will be too expensive.
I wonder now seeing Toyota testing their car, I agree it's a little boring, not exciting enough? Why they simply didn go with formula as the car would be somewhere between Rally1 and Rally2 on power, no expensive weird aero packs and have whatever they want (shape/segment). It would be cheaper than Rally1 and a little more expensive than Rally2 car. That way we could keep pinnacle, drivers wouldn't complain that much and the difference from Rally1 wouldn't be significant.
Toyota could dominate and probably will over tuners and Rally2 teams, but remember that sometimes tuners get right with building the car over the official manufacturer. It's just they will probably doesn't have a budget for likes as Ogier, Neuville or Tanak, except if those blokes will not have any other option.
That that's exactly what put off the Manufacturer's from WRC / Rally 1. No business, no sales, all due to the crazy costs. Those Regs have been an abject failure in growing the top level of the sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
And the costs will stay crazy next year. WRC could drive bicycles and Toyota would find a way to spend 100 million a year. Not hating Toyota though, they just play the game to perfection. I am glad they are there. This is a FIA / Promoter problem
Disagree, but only because WRC+ and Rally1 were never meant to be customer classes. 3 or 4 teams was comfortably enough for the promoter - which is why I say promoter entries. Now we have 1 and two also-rans, it's not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The crazy costs is a fair point, but there's no cost cutting or significant technical formula that's going to be attracting *new* road car manufacturers to *any* class even. Doesn't TypeR's video sum it up?
The fundamental question of this conversation remains why should road mobility production car manufacturers have a monopoly on supplying these race cars when their core business is the antithesis of speed and racing?
Still maybe a bit of stupid idea. But in my oppinion you need to go where racing or off-roading is the core business. High powered street cars like Ferrari / Lambo or jeeps (don't know the brands there). Maybe do both. Tarmac Championship, Gravel championship.
Or .. the cynical route. Let the Saudis buy WRC and inject 5 bazillions like in Dakar ^^
There were not manufacturers in ERC or national championships, it was dealer teams, which is different. Manufacturers are interested mainly about highest category and homologating the cars. But if the promotion of the championship is shit and they are not able to promote the sport in proper way, there is no interest in joining. From manufacturers, from potential sponsors. There were some of them trying to join, but when they see how it is working...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Surely not going to come if a production run of 25,000 4 seats models rule is in place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Sorry but how it's working is what everyone must accept is that it's working. Just about for now, but assuming there's a new promoter coming also assumes it'll continue working this way.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
We shouldn't confuse sports promotion with publicity especially for ESL speakers here, and specifically publicity of the competitors sponsors. It's another archaic fallacy. It's not the job of WRC Promoter to publicise the entrants' sponsors. Sure it can be part of an unwritten bilateral win, but didn't the promoter's sponsor Hankook ban one of the entrants from taking to a stage recently as it had a rival's sponsor?
FIA are happy with this kind of deal and many Red Bulls were sold during this promoter's stint and WRC2/3 participation is also generally healthy throughout. So is it shit promotion? Promoter done good! Do you realistically expect this kind of arrangement to change? Have it go back to a cup where the regs have to 'attract' participation? Don't have any TV rights or commercial deals... Don't have anybody broadcasting it even?
Not a chance. Look at WRX for what happens when a promoter goes walkies.
Yet another constructor/tuner rumoured to be eyeing a 2027 entry.
Question is: Will all these new entries have any meaningful impact, championship-wise?
https://www.instagram.com/p/DYXHby3R...FreGFqbjQzcw==
I see it that way. If there will be many tuners, some may do well. Maybe later on they could persuade manufacturers into the sport and back them up. Wouldn't be that easier for manufacturers?
I really hope they will have an impact. Realistically though they all will perform worse then M-Sport and most likely quit quite quickly.
Since how do they even expect to be financed? Car sales for sure not, there is no market for 50 WRC27 and why should one buy a RallyOne when one could buy a Toyota
I think yoy may be underestimating the amount on Rally2 cars being owned by small private teams. At some point the current Rally2 cars will be outdated and they have to buy something new. If the WRC27 is in a similar price range, then it would not be a bad decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
Do Rally2 cars have budget cap? I know that they vary in prices. I'm afraid that with WRC27 the story will be different. All of them will go to the absolute maximum, 345,000. But the performance could be very different. And we could end up with Toyota having huge sales and everyone else nothing.
I would wager people will be reluctant to switch until the WR27 are proven. And in general why should they if their Rally2 is still competetive (to take FIA by the word here, reality will be interesting)
I remember certain members here repeating all the time “the top drivers will make the cars look interesting by pushing them to the limit”Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferranis
So guys, we have many videos by now with one of the fastest guys testing the Toyota and are you still saying the same?
For me it’s just painful to watch