The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

May I refer you to post #1456.

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You may, you may!

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

But there isn't a fast and talented Italian F1 driver currently.

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Given the hype that Ferrari trumps itself up to behold, you'd think more Italians would want to work up through the series from karts to GP2 etc with the ambition of one day driving for the 'great team'.

Or is that a bit OTT?

Perhaps Ferrari is just 'another' longstanding F1 team....

IMMVHO, naturally.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You may, you may!

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And your answer is....................?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Given the hype that Ferrari trumps itself up to behold, you'd think more Italians would want to work up through the series from karts to GP2 etc with the ambition of one day driving for the 'great team'.

Or is that a bit OTT?

Perhaps Ferrari is just 'another' longstanding F1 team....

IMMVHO, naturally.

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Ferrari is THE long standing team in F1. At least you got that right!

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I think this is being extremely unfair. Apart from the fact that Ferrari prefers to have the best drivers from the grid in their team, I have read somewhere that the trauma of Bandini's crash at Monaco resulted in Enzo preferring not to become involved in F1 races himself, and his preference not to have Italian drivers because of how he suffered from that occasion.

Of course, others will come up with different reasons, but that's what I read many years ago.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

And your answer is....................?

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Sorry Valve, but what was the question?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Sorry Valve, but what was the question?

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It's in the post you purported to have read. It was the reason why Ferrari was not keen to hire Italian drivers.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

It's in the post you purported to have read. It was the reason why Ferrari was not keen to hire Italian drivers.

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Could you post the post I am purported to have read in my previous post, where I asked what was the question, when you questioned what my answer ought to have been, but I was unsure, because I questioned whether you had, in fact, actually asked a question that indeed required an answer.

I suppose I could just put 42.......

EDIT - that's sneaky Valve, I responded to this; "Valve Bounce has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The Ferrari thread - in the Formula 1 forum of {MotorsportForums}.

This thread is located at:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/foru...6&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

---Quote (Originally by SGWilko)---
Sorry Valve, but what was the question?
---End Quote---
It's in the post you purported to have read."
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But I see you have subsequently added to the post.

Maybe my answer should now be 43? ;)

Aha.

So, what happens if, one day, an Italian driver is the best of the pack (I know, but work with me here, ok?)

Do Ferrari overlook him because of past precedent?

What about Luca's obsession with that dude that rides the bikes and a third Ferrari?

Rossi isn't it? Isn't he Italian?

Could you name the great Italian drivers you think Ferrari should have hired since Bandini?

To my knowledge, there haven't been any.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Could you name the great Italian drivers you think Ferrari should have hired since Bandini?

To my knowledge, there haven't been any.

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That is exactly the point.

If Ferrari is such a national institution - not having started out as one as you say - and is THE draw and is tantamount to F1, ya da, ya da, ya da, why are there not more dreamy eyed Italian bambino's being groomed into karting, with a view to working up the series, learning their skills etc, to one day drive for THE team?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

That is exactly the point.

If Ferrari is such a national institution - not having started out as one as you say - and is THE draw and is tantamount to F1, ya da, ya da, ya da, why are there not more dreamy eyed Italian bambino's being groomed into karting, with a view to working up the series, learning their skills etc, to one day drive for THE team?

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How do you know they haven't tried? Italy is the centre of the Karting world, for your information. The number of Italian bambinos trying to succeed hasn't diminished over the years, as can be seen by the continued growth of Italian karting.

I think this may surprise you, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Nice try to flame-bait, but you need to try harder yourself. It is not as easy as it looks.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

How do you know they haven't tried? Italy is the centre of the Karting world, for your information. The number of Italian bambinos trying to succeed hasn't diminished over the years, as can be seen by the continued growth of Italian karting.

I think this may surprise you, but it's not as easy as it looks.

Nice try to flame-bait, but you need to try harder yourself. It is not as easy as it looks.

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Hold your horses (no pun inteneded) :)

No flame baiting here.

I am just asking the question as the nationalistic hocus pocus was not started by me..

I'm trying to understand how Ferrari can be this uber Nationalistic team, but does not have a regular influx of home-grown talent to showcase.

I am obviously not getting the point across.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Aha.

So, what happens if, one day, an Italian driver is the best of the pack (I know, but work with me here, ok?)

Do Ferrari overlook him because of past precedent?

What about Luca's obsession with that dude that rides the bikes and a third Ferrari?

Rossi isn't it? Isn't he Italian?

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In case you havn't noticed yet, Enzo Ferrari passed away in 1988. He was the one who was reluctant to hire Italian drivers following Bandini's death.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

In case you havn't noticed yet, Enzo Ferrari passed away in 1988. He was the one who was reluctant to hire Italian drivers following Bandini's death.

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Indeed. 22 years in which to have a worthy home grown pilot.

So why was my previous post unfair?

Look,

My argument is as follows;

McLaren, as posted on this very thread, currently have an all British driver line-up. Great.

British team, British drivers. As a proud Brit (with little left to be proud of as successive governments have sold off everything we once had to shout about that was great about this country), it gives me something to celebrate, especially as both drivers and team are competetive in an all round competetive season.

Then, the post below pops up;

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Comparing the marketing of the Button/Hamilton pairing as comparable in any form to the Ferrari story shows a lack of historical knowledge.

Ferrari were intially a success story for Italy at a time when very little else was. Ferrari helped restore Italian pride after the disaster of Mussolini and the destruction of the country, politically and physically, during WWII.

Putting two British drivers in the same team in 2010 because Vodafone think it would sell some more phones is not in the same league.

Not by a long, long, long way.

When you understand the difference, when you can understand what Ferrari means to the Italian pysche, then you will see why.

Of course, the importance of Ferrari as a symbol of Italian success does not have the same gravitas if you are unaware of the history of Italy.

This is a different sort of nationalism to which I think Mr Devote is recoiling.

That nationalism, which I assume is the sort promoted by the original Silver Arrows, was indeed both brutal and ugly and sinister.

The national pride produced by the Ferrari story is an altogether more benevolent entity.

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So I am intrigued to understand how being nationalistic is OK for some, but not for others.

And to highlight this, I use the comparison and point out that Ferrari does not and has not had a competetive Italian driver on the books for quite some years.

Now, given how fervent Italians are, and how, if you cut an Italian in half it says Ferrari inside, why are there not more Italians in F1. I accept that not all will be superstars, but the point about Ferrari being Italy and Vice Versa just does not ring true when you consider that talent vis a vis F1 drivers is not there to represent the country of the Scuderia. If it was as hyped, everyone would be wanting to drive for their team.......

My point I guess is that maybe, just maybe there is a bit too much pomp, and not enough circumstance?

I am not being derogatory to Ferrari, nor to the Italian nation, just asking the question, and pushing the point.

It is enough for the Tifosi to see all drivers wish to be in a red cockpit , as I read it .
The way to the top step of the podium is to have the fastest , not the most Italian driver .
Drive well for the Scuderia , and you may become an "honourary Italian" for a time .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It is enough for the Tifosi to see all drivers wish to be in a red cockpit , as I read it .
The way to the top step of the podium is to have the fastest , not the most Italian driver .
Drive well for the Scuderia , and you may become an "honourary Italian" for a time .

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Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

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It is the car which is important.

Understand that, and you understand the difference.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Well, if Ferrari is winning, I imagine Italy is happy.

But how much better would that win be if it was via an Italian driver?

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When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .


It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .


It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

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Bravissimo!

An excellent description of the situation.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Bravissimo!

An excellent description of the situation.

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Thank you .
It's good to know that I understand .

Just popping in to say how hopeful I am for serious engine problems for the Ferrari cars (well, the one driven by Alonso anyway) at Spa :D

You really have a crush on him don't you :laugh:

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

You really have a crush on him don't you :laugh:

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Yeah, all I need is 20 minutes with him :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .


It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

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If Carlsberg did Forum responses.....

I get it! Thanks Baggy.

And thanks also to pallone.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Indeed. 22 years in which to have a worthy home grown pilot.

So why was my previous post unfair?

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Because, after Enzo's passing, it appeared to me that Ferrari's main aim was to hire the best F1 drivers available rather than focus on Italian drivers. This is a simple concept really as most teams want to do that.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Look,

My argument is as follows;

McLaren, as posted on this very thread, currently have an all British driver line-up. Great.

British team, British drivers. As a proud Brit (with little left to be proud of as successive governments have sold off everything we once had to shout about that was great about this country), it gives me something to celebrate, especially as both drivers and team are competetive in an all round competetive season.

Then, the post below pops up;



So I am intrigued to understand how being nationalistic is OK for some, but not for others.

And to highlight this, I use the comparison and point out that Ferrari does not and has not had a competetive Italian driver on the books for quite some years.

Now, given how fervent Italians are, and how, if you cut an Italian in half it says Ferrari inside, why are there not more Italians in F1. I accept that not all will be superstars, but the point about Ferrari being Italy and Vice Versa just does not ring true when you consider that talent vis a vis F1 drivers is not there to represent the country of the Scuderia. If it was as hyped, everyone would be wanting to drive for their team.......

My point I guess is that maybe, just maybe there is a bit too much pomp, and not enough circumstance?

I am not being derogatory to Ferrari, nor to the Italian nation, just asking the question, and pushing the point.

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I don't know if I fully agree with what you wrote. If I understand Italians enough, if you cut one in a half I don't think you are going to find Ferrari written inside but you'd rather find Juventus, Inter MIlan, Rome, etc. Most Italian young people would rather become a famous soccer player than a profssional F1 driver. And I dare say that in GB is pretty much the same thing as anywhere else in Europe. In fact, F1 is hardly the most popular sport in Italy. I would agree that you'd find Ferrari written inside as long as that Italian is an Italian F1 tifosi but I would not generalize as you did.

This might explain the reason why you don't see that many, if any, Italians drivers in F1.

In the same token, in the U.S., although it might be regional, the majority of young people want to become famous (American) football player or basketball etc. I am not too sure how many people want to become professional racing drivers but the percentage compared to the other sports is definetly miniscule.

Bottom line: the ball is way more popular than the piston.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

It is the car which is important.

Understand that, and you understand the difference.

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I would definetly second that. I don't care who drives for Ferrari either (although I make one exception for MS). To me the most important thing is Ferrari winning.

Drivers come and go. Ferrari as a legend stands for ever.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Just popping in to say how hopeful I am for serious engine problems for the Ferrari cars (well, the one driven by Alonso anyway) at Spa :D

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Don't jinx it :)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

When Enzo was around , he decided that no more of his country's sons would be risked at an Ferrari wheel .
It was different then , with so many lost each season .

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This was specifically after the crash and horror fiery aftermath of Bandini's accident.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

There was great pride shown when an Italian took the wheel last year , but also great trepidation whether he would stand well under the pressure .

Sure , I think the nation would be happy to have an Italian champion , but clearly , the aim is for a red car to win , and the Tifosi understand this fully .

To the Tifosi , an average driver is not good enough , be he Italian or anything else .
And , if one that is good enough comes along , they will make every effort to sign him , happily .

And , judging from the decision regarding Fischichella's replacing Massa last year , the Scuderia is sometimes prone to letting nationalism creep in , albeit rarely . I'm not so sure he was the best available at the time .
But , maybe that's how they saw it .


It's really down to the order of importance .
To win is paramount .
I don't think anyone is saying that the Italian nation would be unhappy if an Italian driving for Ferrari won .
But , rather , that anyone , including an Italian , who didn't win , would make the nation unhappy .

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I think you've got it spot on, Baggy. ;(

For those who may not be fully aware, please let me acquaint you with what happened at Lorenzo's fatal accident: http://www.google.com/search?source=...b4f7af4a13aa89
and why Enzo did not want to have Italian pilotes after that.

Even to this day, I find it impossible to study these reproductions myself. But I can tell you it has nothing to do with "old school" or "superstition", or being misguided. The fact was that Enzo was human, and he felt deeply, very deeply for Lorenzo's loss. ;(

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If Carlsberg did Forum responses.....

I get it! Thanks Baggy.

And thanks also to pallone.

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Who's Carlsberg ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Who's Carlsberg ?

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Carlsberg is a Danish beer, and who's tagline is 'probably the best beer in the world'.

http://www.carlsberg.co.uk/Adverts.aspx

So, cast your suspicions and preconceptions about me aside, and accept the compliment in the way it was meant.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Look,

My argument is as follows;

McLaren, as posted on this very thread, currently have an all British driver line-up. Great.

British team, British drivers. As a proud Brit (with little left to be proud of as successive governments have sold off everything we once had to shout about that was great about this country), it gives me something to celebrate, especially as both drivers and team are competetive in an all round competetive season..

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Perhaps I should add that to compare current Britain with post-war Italy is not a realistic comparison. I understand the dislike of Blair, Brown, Major & Thatcher. Typical politicians. But they did not destroy their country quite so completely as Mussolini.

It is that Ferrari's success was seen as a re-birth symbol for Italy following the catastrophe of fascism, that is why Ferrari lies deep in the heart of Italian affection.

1950's Italy was a place of poverty, recriminations, mass unemployment and emigration. There was nothing to rejoice at for the vast majority....except the exploits of a race team from Maranello.

Ferrari gave Italians a reason to be proud again.

That, added to the legends who have built up the Ferrari success in later years, is the key to understanding why it is the cars, the scuderia, which are the important thing to the Tifosi.

I also add a 'Grazie mille' for your appreciation of my previous post.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

Perhaps I should add that to compare current Britain with post-war Italy is not a realistic comparison. I understand the dislike of Blair, Brown, Major & Thatcher. Typical politicians. But they did not destroy their country quite so completely as Mussolini.

It is that Ferrari's success was seen as a re-birth symbol for Italy following the catastrophe of fascism, that is why Ferrari lies deep in the heart of Italian affection.

1950's Italy was a place of poverty, recriminations, mass unemployment and emigration. There was nothing to rejoice at for the vast majority....except the exploits of a race team from Maranello.

Ferrari gave Italians a reason to be proud again.

That, added to the legends who have built up the Ferrari success in later years, is the key to understanding why it is the cars, the scuderia, which are the important thing to the Tifosi.

I also add a 'Grazie mille' for your appreciation of my previous post.

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After WWII Britain continued rationing because it was, effectively, bankrupt. The money 'owed' to the USA, by Britain, for its involvement in the war, was not repaid in full until sometime after the year 2000........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Carlsberg is a Danish beer, and who's tagline is 'probably the best beer in the world'.

http://www.carlsberg.co.uk/Adverts.aspx

So, cast your suspicions and preconceptions about me aside, and accept the compliment in the way it was meant.

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Ouch .

Wow , dude .
Touchy much ?

I really didn't get it .
And now I do .

So , thanks , I think .

Guys...let's keep politcs off here thank you :)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Wow , dude .

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Nope, never been surfing, and the urge to let the head hair grow has evaded me......

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

After WWII Britain continued rationing because it was, effectively, bankrupt. The money 'owed' to the USA, by Britain, for its involvement in the war, was not repaid in full until sometime after the year 2000........

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Ah, yes....but you did win the War! Italy did not have this comfort.

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Originally Posted by pino

Guys...let's keep politcs off here thank you :)

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Sorry. I did not realise it was not allowed. I only mentioned it as a background information.

From now on....I keep it zipped!