Ostberg has many technical issues early this season.
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Ostberg has many technical issues early this season.
@rallyper
Of course i know nothing about the sport i admit it.Thats why im here to give me some insight.Since mads is not a mediocre driver can you tell me some mediocre drivers? prokop?al attiya?novikov?ok then ,if these drivers are for you mediocre then mads is not mediocre.you put my friend the bar of comparison too low thats why you say he is not mediocre.lets assume that ogier wasnt running in the wrc this moment,how would you label mads?as a top driver?if mads with that results is not a mediocre driver what results would you like to see to label him mediocre driver?please dont forget that he is an experienced pilot and not a rookie.imagine mads running 2002 or 2003 can imagine the results?he wouldnt be able to drive even as third driver for a top team.the fact that at this era there are not a lot of top drivers does not make him something better than a mediocre driver.I believe the problem is that we have rate the drivers by a different way and of course the fact that im irrelevant(please dont remind me that im irrelevant im doing serious efforts to be relevant).
By being more nuanced in your quotes you might not be misunderstood anymore. The word mediocre is not a propriate word when comparing Mads to other drivers in WRC.
Mads doesn't have the "thing" in the head (or the heart) needed to be a winner. So many years he was slowly cruising, "improving the pacenotes for next year" (or the year two years after next year) that now when he has to win he doesnt know what to do and bins it (Portugal is the first example that comes to mind). So mediocre is an appropriate word.
Disagree. ( Like Iskald I say I wouldn´t even response to your quote, but I´ll do)Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSon
Mads is not an mediocre driver in WRC. Being on podium and top three on stages isn´t what an mediocre driver is able to do. However I agree that Mads hasn´t taken the step forward this year as he did last year.
But mediocre - no.
But what classification do you propose then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Well Ostberg is not a top driver, so mediocre is appropriate depending on how you see the likes of Prokop, Nasser etc. If you think these are mediocre drivers and not gentlemen that like to spend millions in their hobby, then yes Mads is a top driver. But sorry he is not in the class of JML, Thierry, and Mikko (with a bit of question mark for him). Clearly Seb 1+2 are in a class of their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Well, Mads, meeke and jml is sameish, both fast and crash. Jml is in a better car tought. Seb 1&2 is in another league, neuville somewhere in between. But its lots of things that happens behind the curtains we will never know.
It's a bit of a bold statement to say that the VW is a better car. When Loeb was winning, people said the Citroën was the best, now with Ogier people go the same with VW.
In this case, Jari Matti has clearly lost some of his talent considering how much better he was performing on a supposedly inferior car...
I belive that Wilson has a great opportunity to get new contract with Ford for the next years. He has rapidly growing talent in his team, he has good and bold sponsor (Qatar), pretty good car and growing sales in R5 market. It would be great to have Ford support back and continious fight in WRC
let's hope ford will get back to the top level as soon as possible, and also other manufacturers...
+1 Moreover Loeb still shows he can win with the "underdog". He won 2 of 3 events he took part in this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by miniwintz
Mediocre to me is a driver not able to fight in the top. Seb 1 & 2 is topdrivers. Neuville still not there but have improved. (let´s wait for his first crash - then we´ll see how his speed progresses) I would say Mikko is same level as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Then we have the group of drivers shining sometimes and doing faults most of the time: JML, Evgeni, Mads, Meeke, (Mikkelsen only speedwise) etz.
Still not mediocre drivers, would you say?
Mediocre drivers in WRC to me is Nasser, Prokop, Qassimi, Hanninen, Atko, Ketomaa etz.
[quote="miniwintz"]It's a bit of a bold statement to say that the VW is a better car. When Loeb was winning, people said the Citroën was the best, now with Ogier people go the same with VW. quote]
We´ll get the right answer after France. I do think VW Polo WRC -13 is a better car than Citroen -13. However Citroen -11, -12 was best car at that time (no, Polo on the stage at that time)
as you said we'll get that answer in Alsace-will be very intersting...
IMO Loeb will have difficulties to keep up with his rival, but not necessarily because the Citroën is or isn't inferior but because he's been on holidays for 6 months...
Whatever happens, I think skill of the drivers is much more prevalent than performance of the car in the final classification. Differences between the cars must be incredibly small.
this is the part the has me wonderingQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
at present, some people say VW is best car as the Seb O/VW combination is working very well (maybe it is the best car, but i don't know for sure). However, we have JML in the same car and he seems to be on the same level as the rest of drivers more or less.
as said above, the same thing was said of Seb L/Citroen combination in the past
yet as mirek pointed out, Seb L was able to win 2 out of 3 rounds in the citroen, and challenge very strongly in sweden when he came second (not really his preferred event).
Seb L and Seb O seem to compete very closely wherever and what ever they drive---always pushing each other
I think its quite "easy"! Seb 1&2 has the abillity to get into the car, get the most of it. They can explain and understand the car better than the rest, and can explain the team around what they wan't. The whole package is best. And they have both the ekstra speed they can use that the others ses not to have. Neuville has something going on, some of the others get some grips sometimes. Jml probably struggle to get the fealing he needs, same with Mads, mikko and dani. And they probably fails to explain what they miss also.
possibly road position as well will affect Seb LQuote:
Originally Posted by miniwintz
After long time browseing forum I've decided to post some of my thougts...
I,ve always liked drivers who are capable of winning more than a one stage. As I am not team leader and I dont care about team result I always rate drivers of they capability to deliver true speed in stage. These drivers are for WRC and not simple point scorers. If driver can win stages that shows, that he has talent, has no fear, has natural god given feel of the limit. I think these drivers have to be chosen for WRC, because sooner or later they will deliver and WRC would be interesting to watch.
Who of you did not like Battle of sebs in Argentina 2013 ?? It was obwious, that Super Ogier was watching Loeb's splits and as soon as he saw that Loeb in on incredible pace in stage 6 or 7 (nor remember correctly) Ogier went off.
I would rather see WRC full of actually fast drivers who try to impress, but crash out in a big fight.
Thats why I dont like that Tanak is without a drive, that Meeke is (and 90% will bee) without a drive.
Some other drivers simply will never win - Wilson, Prokop, Al Quassimi, Nasser e.c
I think there is big potential for Novikov an this pressure no to crash is killig his career. They should allow him to go for it full speed an results would follow. Same for tanak. believe me, I've seen Tanak in stages in Latvia then he was a boy an his talent was visible. He drove his Golf II like it was a WRC and crashed everyone in time tables in his class.
++++1000Quote:
Originally Posted by Negaiss
very nice, i do not think anyone disagrees with you ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Negaiss
are you willing to pay the bills for the wrecked cars these drivers need in order to learn ? because the teams are not willing to...
NOT, you have rised very good point here. Yes, actually spectators are willing to pay more to see extremely spectacular drivers and those who crash sometimes as well.Maybe team bosses are too much thinking about the end result of the season? How much customer cares about the fact that Citroen is multiple WRChampion? How much publisity it gives for the team when there is a big fight between couple of drivers and one goes off?How many so called "clicks" the one who goes off the road gets? and how many gets the one who wins? Maybe teams are not realizing the reality? I learnd in my economy lesson that to be a good salesman you need to know what your customers are expecting from you? Are we expecting titles? are we expecting very spectacular footages, pictures and sometimes some crashes. Be honest with yourself and think what average Joe expects?
Exactly, every team boss wants a Loeb, instant speed, no crashes! I would also say Ogier, but he binned it a fair bit in the first season or so, difference is that Ogier had backing from FFSA and Citroen had more money to spend at the time. There is no doubt that Meeke could one day challenge Ogier, but it wont happen now.
Really? I do have the doubts and I'm sure I'm not alone. If it was like that there would be at least ten drivers challenging Ogier but sadly there are none in reality. Your assumption that some level can be reached by anybody after enough time/crashes spent is wrong. If it was true Khalid Al Quassimi or Nasser Al Attiyah would be champions now because their budget is unlimited and they can crash every single rally three times. Have You realized that Ogier did only 3 seasons in small cars and only one of them international before stepping in WRC car on WRC stages? Some try for ten years without success, some just have some more skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doon
Team bosses are on a leash from the big daddys about spending... a few years back every useless driver and his grandmother had chances (from skiers to bicycling champion and even girls from F1). So now that the finances suffer they have to make safe choices... it is simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
The average joe doesn't even know rallying exists, the average joe is a retard nobody... he just clicks on racing accidents to have fun... and the main reason teams do this is not because they love the sport it is because they want to sell cars and the average joe when he goes to buy a car he will never hear from the salesman that this model crashed 10 times he will hear that this model won 10 championships so the average retard can brag to his retard friends...
No...Quote:
Originally Posted by Doon
thats it. wrc is not like f1 getting hundreds of millions per year for tv rights and other sorts of paid live feed. bluuford, what schools teach you is just "dry" theories. to be really successfull you dont need to blindly follow a rule said by some analyser but you must think on your own and find what can be applied where and how it can be modified to match the change conditions.Quote:
they want to sell cars and the average joe when he goes to buy a car he will never hear from the salesman that this model crashed 10 times he will hear that this model won 10 championships
But Citroen also need to look at future potential for victory, and Meeke has that. The two current ones have had their shot.
the future of citroen is not in the WRC... They are not even a proper manufacturer any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Meeke has no potential without a huge investment... and i doubt anyone will invest in him
no more races for PG in AT Rallyteam:
http://www.vf.se/sport/bilsport/efter-k ... er-vmstart
Maybe Bernardo Sousa replaces him. Bernardo post something enigmatic on fb: and when i almost lost my hopes, i back in the fight
One way to work around it would be to go back to the rule of having three nominated drivers per team and only the best two would score points like it happened until 2003. The costs for the teams would be the same. In fact Volkswagen already runs three cars, Citroen and Ford run also three or four cars. Another advantage of this rule would be to finish with the "ghost" teams. There is "Volkswagen Motorsport" and "Volkswagen Motorsport 2", there is "Citroen Total Abu Dhabi World Rally Team" and "Abu Dhabi Citroen Total World Rally Team" and finally "Qatar World Rally Team" and "Qatar M-Sport World Rally Team". Obviously the B teams are not there to fight for the title against the same factory A team. We have seen in previous seasons an A team driver that underperforms beeing replaced by a B team driver that is doing well or a B team driver that is in front of a A team driver to get a time penalty on purpose to allow the A team driver to finish in a better position. So the main reason for the existence of B teams is to help the A teams. Other purpose is to give opportunitties/experience to promising drivers and also to allow the gentlemen drivers that are sponsoring the team to have a seat. (The M-Sport team is an exception this season. I believe the ony reason why Neuville was not promoted to the A team is because since very early in the season, before Thierry began to shine so bright, Malcolm Wilson realized that his team had no chances to fight for the manufacturers title so when Thierry started to deliver podium finishes there was no point in promoting him to the A team.). Going back to my point if FIA would allow three, or even four, pilots to be nominated by each manufacturer (only the best two would score points) this would mean the same cost for manufacturers but it would allow room for some pilots that are fast but not very consistent. These pilots would have more chances to improve without so big pressure to deliver results. For instance this season Citroen could have Hirvonen, Sordo and Meeke. If Meeke crashes, no big problem, the other two would be there to assure the two finish positions. And as a bonus instead of having a championship with three A team and other three B teams that do not want to fight for the title we would have only three teams. Less teams but that would reflect the reality (this season there are only three manufacturers in WRC).Quote:
Originally Posted by NxOxT
Quote:
Originally Posted by Negaiss
Very nice post. The only thing that matters is if the driver pay for his own mistakes, because the manufacturer can't/doesn't want to. That is how JML became a top-line rally driver that he is today, and that is why I think Novikov and Mads will have pretty bright carrers as well- the flash of speed is there, consistency will come after the 100th crash
And I think it's fairly obvious the manufacturers want this aswell- maybe just a case they don't have a rallying equivalent of FOCA to push their wishes to the FIA? This is an interesting question, I know nothing about the work of manufacturers but I'm sure somebody does.Quote:
Originally Posted by jcatanho
+1
I even liked the system used in best IRC years when team competition was replaced by manufacturer competition without any nomination of drivers (whoever drove a car of Peugeot could take points for Peugeot). It helped to create very competitive championship where manufacturer teams were supporting their bets privateers/importer teams because those could have delivered important points and basically the more cars of the make on start the higher chance for points and manufacturers were encouraged to spread competitive cars all over the rallying world. There were events with like 30 competitors in top class (in years when S2000 were in N4 class it was even over 50 cars in top class - for example Barum rally 2008 I think). Young drivers like Neuville or Mikkelsen benefited from this system a lot as both were driving for satellite importer teams. Now ERC replaced this system by team competition which in this lower budget series is nothing but a joke.
I agree with you, that would be the best solution. Whoever drives a car for a manufacturer can score points for that manufacturer like the IRC (or the WRC until 1992). But I was taking in consideration the costs. With only three or four nominated pilots per manufacturer the cost would be the same as now. With no limit for the number of pilots the costs could increase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
But you can fill the majority of entry list with private cars of a certain manufacturer if they bring their cost down, like M-Sport does at the moment. Also you Citroen/VW that does not like to sell/rent cars to privateer teams for whatever reason and Hyundai that will not have enough cars ready to sell. So I don't think such a rule is/will ever be favourable by manufacturers. Although it will be good for us!Quote:
Originally Posted by jcatanho
If you make a championship per manufacturer, I'm sure that Citroën/Hyundai/VW will be more interested in renting/selling a few cars to privateers. It's some kind of Insurance to Always have 2 cars who score points. The impact of this could be even bigger if FIA dumps the Rally2 rule... :)
But maybe we are forgetting the privateers? For example Prokop/Kosciuszko, wouldn't it be nice if they can "win" something too?