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Motorsport seems to be going that way – whether it truly works is another matter, but it has to be seen to be making an effort.
Next years WEC regs involve a certain amount of energy – how you use it is up to you. Audi, Toyota and Nissan seem keen on showing off their hybrid technology – and the WEC allows this.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the WRC went that way as well, and it may have to.
I don't agree, sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihai
I stand the point that motorsport can never be called ecologic. Only a hypocrite can call any driving done just for sake of driving as something ecologic. No matter if the car consumes 300 or 60 liters per the rally. All the fuel was wasted and all the emissions went to the nature for nothing necessary for human life. I am big motorsport fan and a kind of rally purist but this is simply a fact.
Nobody buys hybrid cars because those would be fast (far majority of them isn't). I seriously doubt any non-marginal effect on hybrid cars sales if those are used in competitions. Would anyone reconsider buying Harley Davidson Electra Glide because Honda Gold Wing is faster on circuit? Answer Yourself. Plus seriously nobody would watch such race. Once it may be good laugh but that's all. A race must also bring some adrenaline. Again we can bring the example of British championship. In Your terms it's very ecologic because there are no super thirsty 4WD cars. Do You see any success there in at least some particular regard? I don't.
I agree with how you put it. WRC might be forced to encourage, some kind of energy recovery systems, so that more manufactures may get an interest into the sport. I dont expect such technologies to offer genuine reduction in fuel consumption and such (as Miahi suggests), but just another platforms for manufacturers to promote their new technologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Although with the current economic climate and the teams in such short budgets (except VW), introducing such rules is a No-No.
More on Meeke and Qassimi:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
Khalid Al Qasimi sings Meeke
That's a good point as well. Everybody is calling for cost reductions but in the same time there is a talk about hybrids etc. Will those be cheaper than current cars? No way! Those will be a lot more expensive for privateers because nobody would be able to run them without factory engineers. Even stock hybrids are nightmare for service crews.Quote:
Originally Posted by makinen_fan
Exactly, Toyota are promoting their hybrid technologies in WEC, so does AUDI with e-tron + quattro. It turns efficient for long running races like Le Mans 24 hours, because the least pitstops you make, the faster you go (assuming cars still have the same power, and in case of AUDI, it turned out exactly that while they were running both R18 e-tron quattro & R18 TDI last year, e-trons used less fuel and recharging appears on braking zones too). I can't see anything like that happening in Rally, just doesn't make much sense (at least with current level of electric technology, and for ecological aspect in mind in last place).Quote:
Originally Posted by makinen_fan
Also I will add that there will be some problems with handling cars, their batteries and KERS systems in case of crash. In circuit racing, you have the marshals to help move the cars, and they should be specially trained for handling cars with such systems to avoid electrocution and further problems with chemicals in those batteries. Although in rallying where any spectator can go and help move the car, it will be risky for their safety.
Yeah, not so ecological too I guess
There is a chance for Kubica to drive in WRC this season:
Citroen says works WRC drive is possible for Robert Kubica - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com
They need to try something...
You can't say this idea will work or not if you don't define the target audience. In marketing classes one of the first things they teach you is to explore in what fase of audience your product is. Based on that you define your strategy, pricing, marketing, costcutting or not etc. To put it in a simplified manner these are the phases as they can be applied on rally:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
1. Early adaptors <-- the most dedicated people discover your product. They are driven about it and likely to infect others with enthusiasm. In rally this was the audience until lets say the Audi Quattro arrived in 1981. Until that time the people who followed the rallysport were mostly technical people who could build their own WRC car in principle. And also adventurers who enjoyed the travels and the stories. It took a real effort to follow rally then. The audience is small in this phase, but at the same time they are dedicated and eager to mouth to mouth advertising.
2. Mass audience starts to take notice. From 1982 interest in the rallysport really exploded. It was still technically interesting, it was still an adventure, but at the same time more and more people took more than a passing interest in rallies. With ups and downs this phase lasted until the Dave Richards era. The audience grows but it still takes an effort to follow the sport.
3. Highpoint. Most of the people that ever followed the sport is now, so you make it as easy as possible for everyone to follow you. That takes a lot of effort, but because so many people are reached you make up for it in volume. The DR-era saw small accesible rallies that killed the adventure. But at the same time it had the bigest media reach, everyone could follow the rally from their couch, especially people that don't like adventures. And that was a lot of people.
4. Downhill. This where we are now, the road towards the end. Here marketing studies say you need to cut costs and raise prices. Try to shake out as much money as you can and forget everything else. People complain that the WRC promotor does so little promotion and that they keep raising prices. Well that is because they realize this ship is sinking...
So for you to say "ecological racing will not work" is to simple. It won't work for the current audience no, but the current audience are the people in phase 4 on the downhill. We are the idiots that still live in phase 1 or 2 and can't let it go. The rallysport needs a reset, it needs to attract new people. It needs to attract people that are interested, dedicated and very social about it. In short, it needs to go to phase 1 again. That won't happen by doing the same thing again and again. 1.6 Turbo or 2.0 turbo, S2000 or R4 or R5 or whatever, nobody cares. Doing the Safari rally and the only limitation is that you can use max 100 litres of fuel, now that could be interesting. Eco cars are stupid now but give it three years of development and they are pretty cool...
Okay a lot of blabber again from me, sorry I should stop posting late at night :o
Does anyone has news about Benito Guerra ?
Lousada: I can agree partially but with all. I do agree that as a marketing tool rallying was working best with audience which virtually disappeared when people started to take cars only as common goods. Anyway I'm still skeptical about the hybrid etc. concepts. It could work in my opinion only if we do a total restart in terms of absolutely free competition - that means to allow completely different ideas to fight together and also to allow anybody to take part and build his own machine. However I think that it's too early for that. In the moment electric and hybrid cars are not really useful for long rally-type competitions and also they are pretty expensive, especially hybrids.
By the way I may look more conservative than I'm. On Sunday I'm going to spectate an SAE Formula event where electric cars take part as well. One of those was originally designed by my brother ;) In case You don't know the SAE Formula is a prestigious international university competition held since 1978.
Kubica may get a DS3 WRC drive?
Citroen says works WRC drive is possible for Robert Kubica - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com
If Kubica wins WRC2 and ERC, and we see that he is given a chance in the A-Team by Matton, more young drivers will try that way, instead of trying a WRCar too early.
And that is more or less how it should be!
That is nothing new. It is the way Loeb, Ogier, Neuville and others came to the WRC...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
Not at all. However, some explanation of why you think 'phase 2' came about would be interesting. There are nearly always lessons to be learned from when something was once successful, even in changing times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lousada
It may have to, but how to manage it without creating a Le Mans-type situation whereby there's no point entering in the top class without a hybrid?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I have no problem with slowing rallying down in general. In fact, to me that would be a welcome bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mihai
Nonononono. The point of rallying is to see who is the fastest. If they have to drive like tourists on the stages then its not fun for the spectators and the drivers. Thats the main reason why WRC is better than F1. People are driving flat out. If something has to change then it should be that you get points every day. Like in poland. If you retite on day one then you can still get points from day 2 and 3. Then people are always driving flat out. The rally winner is who has thr best time through day 1,2 and 3.
With respect, this is quite a modern view of rallying. It wasn't always about going flat-out all the time — this was why drives like Mikkola on the 1983 1000 Lakes, or Vatanen on the 1985 Monte, were so exceptional. They took it absolutely to the limit to recover from problems and win. And it wasn't as if everyone else looked like they were cruising. Does one see any truly outstanding drives like those nowadays?Quote:
Originally Posted by eestlane
And the notion of awarding points for each day goes against the very notion of the sport as we know it. Why not go the whole hog and award points for each stage? That would be fine for a new sport, but not rallying.
Whatever happened to a test of speed & endurance?? It's almost now a dirty word in the WRC. 200km of special stages isn't exactly testing, is it?
Actually I don't know any event that has been below 300km of special stages, so far... Except for Rally Jordan that has been cut due to transport/safety issues. Actually I think events are getting longer again last few years (at least longer than 4-5 years ago)? Greece thisy ear and Sardinia last 2 years are the exceptions...Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Yes, the "tolerance" to the length of the event is now wider allowing longer events. In last few years there was a number of 400+ km events which was not the case of the decade before. Argentina was scheduled even up to 500 km. Even the shortest ERC events are over 200 km.
Indeed... Average length of WRC event in:
2012: 387,89kms
2011: 356,96kms
2010: 351,33kms
2009: 349,91kms
2008: 346,64kms
You can't really say events got shorter in terms of SS kms, but in number of stages they got a bit shorter I think. More longer stages, like 40-50km long monster-stages, I don't really like the idea of less seperate stages, especially from a spectating point of view.
Good point! but it is not possible to win ERC for him anymore. Mathematically not possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
There was plans for Kubica to do ERC, but after bad results they have focused on WRC2.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluuford
...where he has almost no competition! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
He can only beat those who enter, and anyway I think after Finland comments like yours are not nessessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by pucky54
Most comments on this forum are not needed, but that doesn't mean they are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
2nd in WRC2 at this moment is Al-Kuwari, big competition? If you see he lost over 1s/km to top drivers of the Italian championship, while he often won the WRC2 by minutes, you can start questioning... ;) And yes, in Finland there were some local drivers and there was Paddon (for the first time this year).
WRC on Twitter is a failure, but on facebook also. They posted a message "156 entrants for Germany". Hartusvuori commented that it was wrong, that 156 is the highest number competing, but not the number of competitors. Then they deleted the post. Talking about professionalism...
So Meeke replaces Sordo in Australia. Good decision.
Reading between the lines of the Autosport reportage of the Citroen announcement; my interpretation of Germany being Sordo's last chance is very much confirmed - podium or else Kris is in for the rest of the season, not just Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettersolberg29
yep, after that it will be decided if Sordo leaves or not, but i think that they might just swap both drivers next year, I mean even Hirvonen's performances this year are low for his standards
Meeke is nothing better then Sordo...
Don't think he's that much better indeed, but still Sordo simply doesn't show anything this year.
Well, tell M. Matton he's got it wrong then!! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
Wait until Meeke has done the same number of WRC events in a WRCar - then make a judgement! I think Kris has only done about 12 events in a WRCar.....in a 7-8 year period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
anyways it will be intersting to see who's where next year...if their only were more manufacturers...