Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
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Totally agree! Msport R5+ Fiesta gave a pretty good idea of what a R6 car could be, and the sport would hugely benefit from having WRC top category closer to the regional and national classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
You said You can't believe that they cost under 250 thousand. Me and Br21 (who definitely knows how much they cost, You shall belive him) have told You You are wrong. Don't start some gymnastics about single Euros (it's not single Euros anyway).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
This is exactly what You wrote and what was addressed as wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
R5 cars have real problem with reliability. It's very very difficult for them to finish WRC event withou technical problems. Do You think that overpowered R5 can somehow magically survive more? It can do short national events for sure but WRC ones? I'm quite sure they must be less reliable than normal R5 and as such be also a lot more costly to run (You can again ask Br21 how much the gearbox or diffs of R5 can survive).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
By the way the most powerful R5 cars of today have engines fully comparable with late 90' WRC. I don't think that it wouldn't be enough.
Skoda full spec costs 235k euros in gravel or tarmac, assembled car. For Fiesta we paid not much less if I remember right, for almost full spec assembled car, gravel or tarmac. I also know someone who get disassembled car from them, but price was very similar, just it was very basic spec, so little bit cheaper.
PSA cars you can but in kits, but also for something around 210k euros.
Obvious is when you buy car it's only in tarmac or gravel spec, so if you wish you need to get other kit, which costs a lot. But counting like that doesn't make sense, as if you will order i.e. 30 magnesium rims it will immediately add 15k euros.
99% people/teams who bought cars they paid 0% VAT.
Fiesta R5+ is nice to drive, but very often you have some problems with it as it's not that well developed like normal R5. Problems I mean with mapping and parts which are different from normal R5. Other, typical R5 car parts are getting worn much faster than in normal R5. Engine kms for example you count x1,5.
In my opinion R5 car (Fiesta in my case) can do typical (not very rough) WRC event without problems, but you really need to have car well prepared (which means a lot of investments - tests to check potential problems and new parts before the rally) plus change some parts during the rally.
Honestly, I found that the one who has been doing gymnastics about the R5 prices it's you, because you weren't clear enough from the start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I do believe Br21 info, but I found (and Br can confirm it) that 235k it's the value for a tarmac car, without the gravel conversion kit.
So a full spec (tarmac AND gravel) R5 car price is: basic version + conversion kit = over 250.000€ (without taxes).
PS: I see Br21 has already do it.
Nobody has ever spoken about the car in both asphalt and gravel spec. Such combination has been never used for comparison of car prices regardless the class. Every car in the world gets naturally more expensive if You buy both specs. The only thing what it is good for is to make the price looking worse, same goes about Your counting VAT which is simple nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
30 rims has to be considered spare parts but the gravel kit price it's essential to understand the full price of the car, as it's due to rally both surfaces (and probably most costumers use it that way).Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
Anyway, thanks for your clear inside views.
Most customer don't need both kits. That's the case in Portugal but for example here in CZ nearly nobody has gravel kit. Same applies to Ireland, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Slovakia, Denmark or for pure gravel countries like Finland, Norway, Sweden. In many other countries the gravel and asphalt events are not part of the same championship and therefore many owners have only one kit (France, Italy, Spain).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Mr. Serious, how can you know who has it all. Sixth sense?
BTW - the thread is about "The new FIA WRC-car concept 2017"!!!
The 2 most important international championships on which R5 cars can compete (WRC2 and ERC) are mixed surface series, so it must be sufficient to understand the relevance of knowing a full spec car price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
In 2nd hand ads (notably at rallycarsforsale.net), the majority of R5 owners mention the availability of gravel (or tarmac) kits and some expressly refer that VAT it's not included on the advertised price.
Over & Out.
Danon is right, this discussion actually belongs in the R5 thread. I only mentioned it as an example of "development will make (relatively) cheap machinery expensive again, hence I don't believe in space frames for cheapness...", not as a base for a topic that belongs in another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by danon
Also, it is no longer a car anymore and has no connection to the real world or to the sport's grass roots. Space frames work in Nascar because nobody would ever try to consider that a car anyway. Also nascar is possibly the most boring motor sport on the planet so why we would go there for inspiration is beyond me.