Tactically it may have been successful but strategically not even as much as a comprehensive plan for improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
All the hype sounds more like a political party than a racing series trying to survive.
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Tactically it may have been successful but strategically not even as much as a comprehensive plan for improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
All the hype sounds more like a political party than a racing series trying to survive.
Well, Miatanut, go to Indy then.....and hear 33 of 'em scream by the way you describe.
While Indy was my introduction to American open wheel racing, I lost interest in Indy in '92 when Tony refused to admit he should of taken the advice of John Fitch and others who had published articles about installing energy absorbtion systems over the outside wall at Indy, and then began a smear campaign against Jovy (after he was Atlantic RoTY and Atlantic Champion). He took a lot of credit years later when he finally installed such a system. As a result, Indy '91 was the last I watched. Indy doesn't have the burning brake smell, on account of they no longer use the brakes to corner at Indy.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Portland, Vancouver, Laguna & Long Beach were all a lot of fun.
Oh, wait. They are no longer part of the schedule.
I recall no such smear campaign against the late Jovy Marcelo. I remember something about a helmet or seat belt system not being right for some reason but it didn't constitute a smear campaign.
If you want to smell brakes and tire smoke, get a seat in the tower terrace.
I do not remember a "smear campaign" per se - but I think I remember I lot of talk about him not being experienced enough to be at Indy etc.....
The talk wasn't centered so much about Marcelo as a driver but the whole team -- Antonio Ferrari's bunch wasn't much and he wasn't particularly good at paying his bills, which made the race car suspect.
The Atlantic Rookie of the Year and the following year's Atlantic champ? Did you ever see him race? I did. Several times in person. The kid was gifted. No, he didn't have years of racing dirt ovals, but he clearly knew a lot more about what to do behind the wheel of a car than a lot of Indy first-timers. But to Tony, "inexperience" was an easy card to play. He objected to earlier proposals for Safer-type barrier because they would cause an unacceptable reduction of track width. That left him in a vulnerable position given the particulars of this accident, and "The best defense is a good offense."Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
Miatanut, that, IMO, is patently ridiculous. The elements of safety in racing at the time were as good as they could be. Technology and thinking has improved them since. That's just how things and time progress. Since Marcelo's tragic death, the HANS device has been developed and proven, the SAFER barrier has been developed and proven, cockpit safety has been improved. There are people out there who you or me don't even know about working on a cure for cancer and when they find one, I'm not gonna say, "Gee, they should've thought of that 20 years ago."
In the years before Jovy's accident, On Track ran a couple articles a year on race track safety, in which Indy was always prominently featured and they described what is now known as the Safer Barrier, because John Fitch had already worked it out. Tony wouldn't go for it. That's why I started my boycott of Indy after Jovy's death and Tony's inappropriate statements, trying to keep the heat off himself. It was just classic Hulman/George stuff. The modern version is the gearboxes sticking out the back end and the cars which fly too easily. If somebody gets rubbed-out from time to time, it makes it more of a spectacle. I reached my fill. I recognize many haven't. Yet. It took me two years to get my stomach for it back after '73.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
They had an obvious problem and they were way behind the curve in correcting it. Same as now.
Baloney. We live and learn. Where was the Internet 20 years ago? The gearbox issue has been fixed. The "flying cars" phenomenon has been fixed, although don't expect a car not to "fly" if a wheel runs over another one. Maybe our thinking will progress someday to where a frog has wings and won't drag his caboose.
If you have read quotes from safety experts like John Melvin through the years, or Kirk Russell on car construction, there is another factor in effecting safety -- that you don't create a worse situation in another area.
Track too narrow with "X" idea? Maybe with decreased track width, cars would run into each other more often because they wouldn't have as much room.
Your comment about people getting "rubbed out" being okay with ANYBODY is unacceptable, to use a mild word for something the moderators should have taken out entirely.
My memory is a bit fuzzy here, but at that particular time wasn't there still an issue with the one Fitch had, where the car's wheel could become instantly lodged in the barrier, whipping the car around with rather violent consequences? I know early versions had this, I am just not sure if this was during the time period in question or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
More of a spectacle to whom? Who are you trying to smear with this comment? Regardless of who it is, it's unacceptable. No one, I repeat, NO ONE in the sport is ever willing to accept someone's death in such a shallow and callous fashion as you are attempting to portray.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
Isn't that logic just a bit flawed? In the first three sentences, you take to task folks who, in your eyes, didn't "reach their fill" and then in the last sentence say it only took you two years to get over it. So how, 35 years later (yep, look at the calendar), can you possibly tell the difference in those who NEVER reached their fill, as you claim, from those who got over it in rather short order, like you did??Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatanut
Gary
My timeline:Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
1970: First Indy I saw.
1973: The disaster known as Indy 1973.
1974: 'Thanks, but no thanks'
1975: 'Thanks, but no thanks'
1976: 'Guess I'll give it another try'
Late 1980's, early 1990's: Auto racing safety articles, including engineering calculations, make regular appearances in On Track and Autoweek, both of which I subscribed to. The obvious problems of the concrete outer walls on the square oval known as IMS are a frequent topic of discussion, and largely similar solutions are proposed.
1992: Former Atlantic RotY and Atlantic Champ Jovy Marcelo killed following a hard impact with the wall at Indy. I'm appalled by Tony's quotes in print and decide I'm done with Indy forever.
Present: Haven't seen any event at Indy since 1991, and I don't care to.
Fitch criticized the initial Safer installation at IMS as one which could hook a car. I'm not convinced. Although I think he has been a great automotive safety engineer, I think this was really more about professional jealousy because they didn't use his proposal years earlier, than a real defect in the design.
In my opinion, the IMS management's practice of being behind the curve on safety, which I first noticed in the early 1970's continues to be expressed in designs like the hard gearbox end, which they then put a carbon fiber pimple on to try to provide some impact absorbtion, the cars which fly too easily, and drivers who should not be out there driving in the field. Another example is if you have some old CCWS race ads and IRL race ads. You will see the CCWS ads talk about the battle of man and machine, the gutsy drivers, etc., and many have no crash images or footage in them, and the others have very little. Then watch IRL ads from the same period, where crashes feature quite prominently in the ad. In 40 years, they haven't changed. This kind of stuff is exactly why I, and many others, have been so passionate in our opposition to IMS management's attempt to, and subsequent success at gaining control of the sport.
They are the wrong people for the job.
Just what did Tony say in print that ticks you off so much? I can't recall him saying anything inflammatory in any way from that accident.
As for your assertions about safety, and everything that IMS and the IRL have done in that regard and the ONGOING efforts, they're still baloney as I said before. I don't know why Fitch's design wasn't used but I DO know that no one would turn it down because they wanted more crashes and injuries.
It was 16 years ago. I don't remember it precisely. In general, it was that the former Atlantic RotY and Atlantic champ didn't know what he was doing. That was followed up by some comment to the effect that Indy had killed much greater drivers. Obviously he couldn't admit they should have implemented the proposals by Fitch and others, because that would have blown the door wide open for a lawsuit from Jovy's family, but he could have been a bit less obnoxious. That combined with the fact he hadn't implemented any sort of energy absorbtion system ticked me off.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Well, PRECISELY is what my question demands when you make such accusations and I almost certainly would remember if he said anything like you picture. Everyone would.
And PRECISELY what was Fitch's plan? For example, you said the excuse was that it would decrease the width of the track. Do you think that taking room to drive away would be safer? What amount of deceleration would take place with Fitch's plan? The current SAFER barriers were studied by safety experts and physicists and crash tests were done at the University of Nebraska for a couple years before the first generation was installed and the current version supposedly takes away about 30-35 percent of the energy. Prior to the SAFER barrier, IMS tried a "styrofoam" type substance that Luyendyk scattered all over the race track with an IROC car.
The HANS device was developed by experts from the University of Michigan and Jim Downing. It was tested and checked and is now mandatory by some sanctioning bodies.
You have made serious accusations but provided absolutely no details. The effect is an inappropriate smear campaign. Take it to CW.
Sorry, you're going to have to do better than that to get me to spend hours looking for details which you can then blow-off. I don't have the passion for American open wheel any more. Tony killed it for me.
Big allegations. Great copout. I find your comments exceedingly questionable because nobody else here seems to remember them, and they're so egregious that I feel certain if the comments were made, they'd be remembered.
I'm almost certain that CART mandated the Han's device (and wheel tethers) before the IRL did.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Half right, I believe, Rex. IRL mandated the wheel tethers first, CART did the HANS first. I could be wrong.
I believe that is correct, but didn't the IRL use the other device (the name escapes me) at that time and then latter drop it for the HANS? Or am I mixing that up with another series??? I know there were two "competing" devices at the time. I just don't remember which series was on what horse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
Gary
It looks like CART and the IRL mandated wheel tethers at about the same time, although it appears from this article that the IRL announcement was a week after CARTs. F1 had already been using them for a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mot...shes_response/
An article I found had GM as one of the driving forces behind the HAN's device and they continued development in the IRL when they switched over from CART.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
It appears from the story you're right. I knew it was very close. The CART incident at Michigan and the IRL incident at Charlotte caused both to adopt the F1 procedure. Gary, you're right about there being another one. All I can remember is that it, also, started with an "H" -- something like Hinchman. Different drivers favored each before the sanctioning bodies came to the conclusion that the HANS device was better.
IC, I think you guys are referring to the "Hutchins Device". Tony Stewart raised a bit of a stink about having to use restraints when they first came in, and when NASCAR compelled him to use one or the other, he chose Hutchins. I think he has since gone over to Hans which is now pretty much standard inQuote:
Originally Posted by indycool
F1, IndyCar, and NASCAR, to name a few.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
BINGO!!! That was the device!
Thanks,
Gary
Is that even being used anymore?
It is now redundunt I think Chap.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaparral66
The "Hutchins Device", no I don't think so. I believe everyone has gone to the HANS instead.
Gary
I think it was outlawed by NASC**.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
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