What Happens Next?

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Originally Posted by sanguin

I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.

It's about the racing and the racing is good!

:)

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Well, I think there is more to the real story and I look at it this way:

Long Beach and Toronto are essential to the series survival. Without those two events under the control of the OWRS owners they would probably be either IRL races by now or out of business because Champ Car has no economy at the moment. Recent events prove this and unless there is a realistic plan to confront that reality it is all but over.

The OWRS owners did not "invest in a new Atlantic car". The manufacturer and the series entrants did. Yes, they did post a $2 million dollar prize for the series champion but that is money that they would have had to pay to someone anyhow to fill the field so, why not? Don't underestimate the contribution Mazda and Cooper Tires make here either to both the Atlantic Series and to ChampCar overall. It is less about dollars than it is about credibility. Atlantic is its own well run eco system and it is healthier than its larger sibling.

The oft-mentioned TV Contract that was supposed to be our salvation has been anything but. By direct comparison with the IRL we look like losers now. It is also a very expensive time buy which so far has delivered value far below its cost. I did not think a zero rating was possible until the two European races proved it on ESPN Classic. Still, ABC an ESPN are better than what we had before on the NASCAR Channel but this is still a losing proposition.

As far as the owners "investing $15 Million in new a new car", I sincerely doubt that. Like in Atlantic, the manufacturer and the series entrants made the investments and from what I can see the manufacturer must be disappointed at the low car count and total number of cars sold which had to have fallen below all the bold promises of one year ago.

As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.

Then there is the fan base. If we have such a big and powerful fan base where are all of us when the series needs us most? People aren't watching our races on TV and they are not coming to our races in numbers sufficient to keep the majority of our events viable. Something does not add up... just like Motorock, Korea, China, Phoenix, San Jose and soon, Vegas.

Finally, you mention jealousy as a root motivation for all the strife. A rational person can clearly see it is something else: It is about ego, power and control. So far our guys are 90 points behind with 2 minutes left in the fourth quarter of the Ego Bowl. It doesn't look good but we don't need to lose everything to prove how all-knowing and superior a few brave billionaires are compared to the rest of us peasants. IMHO, the OWRS owners just need to get real and let us all get on with one series and stop this sad charade. I really can't see any other way. I suspect I am not alone in feeling this way.

Let's put it all into perspective. The 100 million dollar fine levied against McLaren today by the FIA could probably buy any major racing series in the world outside of NASCAR. This number probably only represents 1/6th or less of McLaren's total annual turnover. What we are all arguing about is penny on the sidewalk to these guys. They wouldn't even bother to bend over to pick it up, let alone notice it. To see posts that perpetuate the fantasy that ChampCar is somehow a viable challenger to F1 is amusing. Please get over yourselves!

You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?

Earth to Kalkhoven! Earth to Kalkhoven! Plan 9 From Outer Space has failed. Commander Kevster, please come in. Do you copy? Please hold your fire. You are hitting your own series with stray Spintron torpedoes. We have severe damage on all decks and the crew is beaming down to planet Vison. Come in Commander Kevster!!! Aren't Privates Sanguin and Papyrus passing along our distress messages? We are falling out of orbit and our Uniphasers have gone dead... The Farce Shields are down again! May Day! May Dayyyyy!

I think ABC/ESPN was a good idea (I think staying on SPEED would've been good too, but not everybody gets SPEED). However, the fact that the IRL gets shifted around from ABC to ESPN, ESPN2 doesn't seem to hurt it as much as it does Champ Car, because the network combo throws ESPN Classic into the mix, which is harder to find. Plus, Champ Car doesn't get nearly the promotion that the IRL does, which gets promoted on Champ Car shows! If I were The Amigos, I would have specified no shows on ESPN Classic. New races looking to increase its audience doesn't seem a good fit for ESPN Classic, but that's just me.

From ChainWitz:
As far as Road America and Laguna Seca being back on the schedule, I think this has more to do with having nowhere else to race on American soil as it does with listening to us fans. If they had listened to most of us, they would have never left these beautiful permanent circuits in the first place (this really bothers me). What's more I hear that they are now coming back to these tracks that they dumped as something akin to a free support show for ALMS and Grand-Am just like they did with in Las Vegas where they were a support show for NASCAR Craftsman Trucks. That, my friends, is the fast lane to oblivion.

A very astute observation. Many people on this forum seem to be reaching a simultaneous conclusion that the concept of bringing the race to the urban environment is having inconsistent success. What works in somes cities does not spell across the board success. With the ALMS and Grand AM (another split in racing, but apparently not nearly on the same hostile level as the one
in open wheel, they have stayed true to their mission and both are growing at a steady rate, with multiple manufacturer involvement and great driving talent from all over the world. And yet, both series have American talent competing against all these foriegn drivers; Americans like Scott Pruett in Grand AM and Byran Herta in ALMS, with occasional cameos by NASCAR drivers like Jeff Gordon and Carl Edwards, which also draws interest in the series. It's not the IRL that shares so much with the old CART, it's the ALMS and Grand AM. I think opwn wheel still holds an allure, but there is no denying the high car counts and driver line-ups in sportscar racing right now.

Once more, from ChaimWitz:
You still think it's about the racing and the racing is good but the world is voting with eyeballs, feet and wallets and it doesn't look promising. What's so hard to understand?

As much as as the lack of promotion and chaotic nature of announced venues only to be cancelled is having an affect on open wheel racing, it's the split itself that's keeping the fans away. As I have responded to anyone who's asked me, whenever you have this type of upheaval in a sport, the fans fade and stay away until the matter is resolved. The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.

That's what should happen next.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

I look at it this way. They bought Toronto and LB to secure them for the series.They invested in a new car and revived the feeder series. They secured a tv contract. They invested 15 million on a new car for CC. The fan base is there and they listen to the fans and get tracks back like RA and LS. Just because some are jealous and want to tear it down ,doesn't diminish what is already there.

It's about the racing and the racing is good!

:)

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sanguine,

There’s a process that large corporations go through from time to time called “product viability assessment,” and one element of this is basically asking the question: knowing what we know today, would we launch this product/product-line/service/brand?

Part of the process, and the major reason it’s used is because oftentimes, department or product managers get so wrapped up in making their product-line successful - they can sometimes lose sight of the product’s “viability” in the marketplace.

The whole thing can be very productive when it’s handled by an objective or third-party entity, simply because the emotion and personal interests are factored out of the equation.

Sifting through all the opinions, emotions and whatnot, you get to a point where you ask: knowing what we know now, is CCWS economically viable?

-John

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

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Okay, CCWS77, believe what you want but the facts don't lie. There were only 20,000 spectator seats plus 800 hospitality seats at the Vegas GP. It wasn't sold out which you could plainly see in person and on TV. As for the "overcrowding", that was a result of poor planning and logistics that made getting to and from the event a hassle. There was originally a plan for a pedestrian bridge that would have made this issue go away but this bridge crossed railroad tracks and the organizers failed to contact the appropriate federal agencies in time so they were not permitted to erect them.

As for the other "doom and gloom" on this board, I think the facts again speak for themselves. There is a pattern here. What is posted as "negative speculation" all to often soon becomes grim reality. Some on these boards choose to live in denial, others, like me, get angry at having been lied to and led on, some chose to shoot the messenger rather than heed the message and a few troll and probably delight at our misery. Regardless, this is a very sad time and more very bad news is most certainly coming. Be ready for it.

The name of this thread is "what happens next" and the truth is I live in dread of it when it comes to Champ Car. There are hints elsewhere on these boards that fit with what I am hearing from people who are connected, savvy and have been far more right than wrong so far when it comes to the Champ Car's true circumstances.

Every day brings me closer to a conclusion that there will be one series sooner rather than later. I used to think it would be CART, then Champ Car that would prevail in this battle for the heart and soul of our sport. Like most of you here, I believed we held the moral high ground and we all had been wronged soley by Tony George and what he has done to our once great sport. Now I see things differently. After, Jerkin' Joe, the Pookster and now "The Amigos", the blame is now on both sides equally and the pain is felt by all who love this sport. The path we are on now is exactly what TG and his people were probably worried about. They should have been. Because "our strategy" doesn't make sense and it isn't working. Okay, we all say, “but.. but .. but… CART was great! He killed it! “ Well, Champ Car could have been great and the OWRS owners are killing it from what are now seeing. But this isn’t about all that old baggage anymore. It is about the overall survival of the sport. Chapparral66 said it best:

“The split in AOWR isn't resolved yet. And people are sick of it. We all in here are sick of it. And no matter what the perception is on who is on top in this split, or who won, or who has the most cars or the biggest race, or the most paying sponsors, it doesn't make any difference. The only way either series will get any of their fans back in any great numbers -- if that is even possible at this point --, is to get back together. Resolve it this way, and just like NFL Football, Major League Baseball, and NHL Hockey (albeit more slowly), Open Wheel Racing stands a good chance to come back.

That's what should happen next.”

Amen Chapparrall66. Amen.

Yes, we all need to think about what happens next. There will surely be other events that will shake what little faith we have left but, as we have seen, many posters here are devoted fans who will hang on to the bitter end and I respect that. On the other hand, please imagine what all this does to ChampCar's already awful business climate. I have lived that reality and it is beyond depressing. No amount of fanatical cheerleading can erase the fact that far more money goes out the door than comes in the door when one is involved with ChampCar as a "business".

This year now proves to me and others I know who are promoters, team owners, drivers and sponsors that there is simply no hope of Champcar's business climate changing for the positive so, being a realist, I have to ask: what is the point of this going forward? If Kevin, Gerry, Dan or Paul read these boards I hope they are asking themselves that question and they do the right thing. If you guys are indeed reading this, I just want to say thank for trying and thanks for the good things that you have done. I also want to say that it is clear that you need to put aside your egos and the dream of taking down TG and challenging Bernie. If the first guy is kicking your arse, how the hell are going to take on the guy in London?

Many of you here are saying to yourself, yeah, yeah, yeah, ChaimWitz, heard it all before but who the hell are you and what the hell do you know that we don't? Chaim, all you post here is baseless speculation and all that matters is that the racing is good. (Sanguin, I wrote this paragraph to save you the time and trouble since you have been so busy lately trying to extinguish doubt on these boards).

Okay, whatever! Just realize that there are now far more people who ask themselves this question: "Geeezzz, this does not look good... what the hell is next for Champ Car?

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Originally Posted by sanguin

Have you seen what's going on in F1? Besides all the tracks they dumped, they have a spy case going on. Manufacturers could be out for the season.
Teams go under and get sold every year.The drivers come and go.Compared to their dramas, CC 's are nothing.

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HAHA!!! Dude, you make me laugh!

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

CCWS promotions might have lack of credibility. There certainly are negative things that can be said. But If CC folded tomorrow I would still be blindsided because there is no reason to believe that is going to happen - reason being you guys constantly posting all the negativity don't have any better credibility. For life of me I dont understand why if things are so bad people can't stick to the facts when complaining. Don't you understand if there is an actual problem then sticking to the truth is more effective argument then rediculous exagerations and complaints.

Just as one example of what I mean. If people argued the logistics of Vegas wasnt working and it is too expensive and complicted to setup the event, so it wont be back, well that would actually be a believable problem based on the facts of how Vegas turned out. Instead naysayers promote the total nonsense that the event wasnt actually well attended. Fiction. I was there, the biggest problems were logistics, long lines and overcrowding.

There are real problems with CC no doubt, but things like this make most of the posts in threads like this have absoloutly no credibility. You cant even get what is wrong right.

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good post

Here's a quote- "Attendance at the inaugural 2007 event was estimated to be 40,000 fans on race day. This surpassed the amount of seats available on the course's temporary grandstands facilitating an expansion for the 2008 season." That's not counting friday or saturday. While so called "insiders" can only "speculate". The promoter was happy with the event.

Regardless how much D&G they try to spin, in the end ,other series want CC events ,CC teams ,CC drivers, CC fans. The foundation is there, events, car ,engine, feeder series and that's not going away. All this makes CC viable.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

good post

Here's a quote- "Attendance at the inaugural 2007 event was estimated to be 40,000 fans on race day. This surpassed the amount of seats available on the course's temporary grandstands facilitating an expansion for the 2008 season." That's not counting friday or saturday. While so called "insiders" can only "speculate". The promoter was happy with the event.

Regardless how much D&G they try to spin, in the end ,other series want CC events ,CC teams ,CC drivers, CC fans. The foundation is there, events, car ,engine, feeder series and that's not going away. All this makes CC viable.

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The promoter tried to sell the press on the idea that there were 80,000 there on race day too. They are still laughing at that and the 40,000 number they eventually gave out. Anyhow, believe what you will Sanguin... but there were many empty seats in the 12.000 seat stands across from the pits and the remaining grandstands, in most cases these held approximately 500 people each. There were simply not enough of them to make it work. I know many in the media and they openly scoff at man in charge of the event and they also know that Vegas was a huge loser for the promoter and it won’t be back… as a Champ Car race.

But you are here to keep a finger in the dike so reality won’t come pouring in. So I suspect that the posts here must bug you because you probably know the truth and you are asking yourself who are these people and how the hell do they know these things? (Time to attack our credibility now? bla, bla, bla).

My guess is that you work for OWRS in some fashion or that you are one of the Internet "experts" we all know Kalkhoven and Gentilozzi confide in. If so, say hi to both and tell them the truth is out there and it is now impossible to stop people from seeing it.

Please share with us, just why is it so important to deny the truth and the reality of the situation anyhow? If OWRS were attempting to address their situation, a rational person would expect honesty and communication. All we seem to get is reactive spin and delusional justification of things that can't really be justified from the Amigos, ChampCar’s management and people like you. Why? Just what are you and these guys trying to hide?

Sanguin, I agree that there are still great things about Champ Car. What we disagree about is what should be done with them. I am deeply worried that these remaining positives will be burned at the altar of the Amigo's egos. So, to me, staying the course is doomed to certain failure. This just sickens me.

I think most of the few people left who care now realize without a doubt, that one series is the only hope and that, in the end, that one series will not be called ChampCar. I am sure that you and the OWRS owners want another outcome. I want to be an Astronaut too. Neither is gonna happen.

Ground control to Commander Kevster. Come in Commander Kevster... Your five year mission to seek out brave new markets for the CART Ship Champ Car has been terminated due to lack of results. Please return to base and turn in your Uniphaser. I am sorry but your deposit will not be refunded. But, since you have paid your dues, you still have a chance to be a leading promoter, an engine supplier, and a team owner in a vibrant unified series ... but only if you return to Earth now. Do you copy, Commander Kevster? Do you copy?

What is doomed to fail? A business plan that depends on the failure or killing off of another series.

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Originally Posted by Starter

We're pretty tolerant of opposing points of view on this board. Healthy debate is good for everyone. However, as I've discussed with you in PMs, occasionally you need to say something positive.

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I think the women wearing the ChampCar spandex suits are damn fine looking. In fact, I am positive of it.

In particular, I would like to ask the women holding the Neel Jani marker in this photo http://www.champcarworldseries.com/C...0831P_0105.jpg a question regarding her family tree.

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This board is for ChampCar fans to discuss among themselves the series and racing which they like.

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Excellent. Everybody, let's agree to meet back here in 37 days. I'll bring some nacho chips, Indycool can I put you down for salsa? Anyone have a good recipie for deviled eggs? Who can bring the pretzels?

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If you are, as you've claimed, a person involved in the series this is also not the place to air your personal concerns. I'd suggest a phone call to one or all of the principles instead.

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Inquiring minds would like to know whether this is unsolicited professional advice or a statement made ex cathedra? I would hate to think that a bona-fide insider (a status yet to be confirmed regarding ChaimWitz and thus must be accepted with a copious quantity of sodium chloride) would be encouraged to not participate.