Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

so what Bourdais did at the start was also ok to you ? don't think he got a punishment either or ?

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If there was a penalty every time there was contact there would be no overtaking for fear of contact.This sort of thing always happens at the first turn....

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Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

This is just about to become another Groundhog Thread isn't it? ;) :rolleyes:

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Could be! I also think that there isn't nearly enough pointless reference to Adelaide 1994 in the thread...

My view on the incident? Kimi did nothing wrong. Lewis did nothing wrong. It was great racing and brilliant to see drivers really having a go, whether at passing or defending, and doing so aggressively. The stewards have made a big mistake in applying a penalty.

British Touring Car racing is hardly known as a bastion of fair rules and high driving standards, but F1 could take a leaf out of its book in this instance. I can think of two recent incidents in the BTCC where someone has passed another driver 'illegally' but unavoidably, once under yellow flags and once by cutting a chicane. In both instances, the person who made the move backed off and let the other guy past again, and that was the end of the matter. It should be like that in F1. The penalties applied for cutting the Hockenheim chicanes were another case in point. It was very easy for drivers to be forced to cut across the chicanes.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

trying my very best Ioan...But the ones defending Kimi in this should be to..I mean..one the one hand Lewis should have hit the breakes and when one asks why Kimi not did so..it suddenly is racing and no prisoners are taken..I mean ?

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Sadly youy are arguing the wrong point. Lewis was the one attacking and Kimi was in front so had the right to the racing line. LH realised that they couldn't both make the corner without touching so he had to either brake or cut the chicane. THe real question is if the time that he gave back to Kimi still meant that he had an advantage. It's fairly obvious that Lewis would probably have been about a car length back if they had come out of the corner properly so you could say that he did gain advantage.

The issue that I have with the decision is that it seems particularly harsh for a tiny gain in time. We;'ve often seen drivers skip across corners and gain a few tenths but not be penalised. Also if McLaren did in fact consult Charlie Whiting then it seems even more ridiculous.

In essence thought the FIA have just applied the law to the very letter, something that they rarely seem to do which is what makes it controversial.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

haha ok Daniel..let me see...Lewis clearly hoped Kimi would leave him space..But he didn't..so instead of hitting the breaks hard..eventualy causing a dangerous situation..he choose for the safest option..cutting the corner..letting Kimi pass again after that..Nothing to complain about here either or ?

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Lewis clearly knew Kimi wouldn't give him the room. i'll be honest I've no problem with Lewis cutting the corner. It was the only sane thing to do. But he didn't give the position back cleanly and made a net gain out of it all. No driver should gain out of going off the track

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Originally Posted by Daniel

If there was a penalty every time there was contact there would be no overtaking for fear of contact.This sort of thing always happens at the first turn....

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ok imagine..last race..Lewis leads by 1 point in the championship.....he pushes of Massa in the first corner..that's ok 2 for you ? as to you...those things always seems to happen in the first corner ?

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

ok imagine..last race..Lewis leads by 1 point in the championship.....he pushes of Massa in the first corner..that's ok 2 for you ? as to you...those things always seems to happen in the first corner ?

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As long as he doesn't do it on purpose the objective person would say yes it's OK.

Why should someone fighting for the title have less rights than a backmarker?

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

ok imagine..last race..Lewis leads by 1 point in the championship.....he pushes of Massa in the first corner..that's ok 2 for you ? as to you...those things always seems to happen in the first corner ?

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Clearly if it was reckless or malicious it would be penalised.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

At the middle of the chicane, he had the option - whether to brake and stay a little bit behind Kimi and go through the chicane properly (kimi had taken the room from him), or just cut the chicane and lose less time. He chose the latter one, but it gave him an unfair advantage. Onboard camera showed how easily he could have done the first thing, but he chose the latter to lose less time.

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Disagree with you there. At that point Kimi and Lewis were still wheel to wheel and had Lewis slowed down contact would've been inevitable - LH's RF/KR's RR - because Kimi quite rightly would not give Lewis an inch, just as he did to Massa earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpqlEg19NK0

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Originally Posted by Daniel

You just don't get it. Lewis may have been slightly in front but this is a moot point considering he had to go off road. It's like the pass he got penalised for earlier this year. He passed the car and then went off the road. You can't simply pass a car and then fail to take a corner.

I do wonder if Lewis' bad record this year has something to do with the zero tolerance that the stewards have shown in this case. I do think that having the penalty applied after the race was the right thing to do in this case because Lewis and McLaren have the right to appeal and if the ruling is overturned then Lewis will have his race win back. If the drive through was done during the race there would be no way for them to get back the time Lewis would have lost.

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IMHO you're comparing apples and oranges.

Based on onboard footage (shame the CCTV evidence wasn't made public?) Magny Cours Lewis took too much speed into the Nurburgring chicane whereas at Spa he was fighting for position in which Kimi gave nothing away, in the same way Lewis 'pushed' Piquet and Massa off the track at Hockenheim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joX_A...eature=related

The problem with being pushed wide at a chicane is that you have little choice but to cut the second part of the corner.

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Originally Posted by V12

In the past, when a driver cut a corner like this, he'd get embedded in gravel or slide along the grass and into the wall, or best case scenario would have been held up and not have gained any advantage at all, whereas now more and more off-track excersions are rewarded (prior to a steward's penalty) rather than being penalised straight away.

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Blame that on the GPDA. Call them pussies or down to sporting ethics but they don't like it when smooth asphalt is ruined by gravel and assorted crap.

I think it was Kubica at last year's Malaysian GP where he had an off and proceed to clear out his sidepods on the racing line!

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Originally Posted by V12

Another thing, shortly after this both Kimi and Hamilton deliberately ran wide at a high speed corner to get the extra traction from the tarmac run-off area, very clever on both their parts, but call me old fashioned, if a driver leaves the track, he should face the consequences, and I don't mean an iffy, open-to-interpretation stewards decision.

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I remember Jason Plato did exactly the same thing a few years ago at Copse/Silverstone throughout the qualifying session and got away with it that time. I think BTCC have clamped down on it now.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

He clearly said that if it was reckless or malicious it would be penalised.

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and who's goin to decide if it was or not ?

To me Bourdais action was reckless...and could have turned out way worse if Trulli hitted Massa's car in the incident !

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Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

Sadly youy are arguing the wrong point. Lewis was the one attacking and Kimi was in front so had the right to the racing line. LH realised that they couldn't both make the corner without touching so he had to either brake or cut the chicane. THe real question is if the time that he gave back to Kimi still meant that he had an advantage. It's fairly obvious that Lewis would probably have been about a car length back if they had come out of the corner properly so you could say that he did gain advantage.

The issue that I have with the decision is that it seems particularly harsh for a tiny gain in time. We;'ve often seen drivers skip across corners and gain a few tenths but not be penalised. Also if McLaren did in fact consult Charlie Whiting then it seems even more ridiculous.

In essence thought the FIA have just applied the law to the very letter, something that they rarely seem to do which is what makes it controversial.

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would probably have been you say ? is that enough evidence for you to punish somone in this matter ?