Paddon in action with the Kona
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMwLKqYtMU
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Paddon in action with the Kona
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMwLKqYtMU
Will this help?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/next-...t-three-years/
Electric cars need:
a) Noise generators in the cars or otherwise enforcement of total spectator control, to the point of impossibility. Or even banning of spectators. Otherwise, due to lack of noise there will be many accidents with spectators.
b) Solutions and change of rules regarding temperature control and/or the weather conditions in rallying. Lithium batteries have lower and upper temperature limits. Right now, no electric car can endure a traditional Acropolis rally with temperatures in the car reaching 55 degrees Celsius.
c) Change of rules for roll-cages. A roll-cage that can withstand forces generated from 1250 kg is different than a cage that can withstand forces generated from 1600 kg.
I wish the best to the young generations of rally fans. I myself will stick to my old-school rally car. And most likely I will also buy a rwd Celica TA4 or Escort MkII or Ascona B. If you have one for sale, let me know.
Getting worse and worse..Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
This news is like a spit in the face for a team like M-Sport..
There are no new manus for 22' and no way that any new manu will join before 25', because why would someone develop a hundreds of thousands worth car for 2 years only..
Hyundai still haven't committed for 2022. How are they going to get a car ready so late ?
Adamo: "At the moment the development of the car hasn't started and that will only happen when and if we have a positive answer from our HQ in Korea."
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...mpete-in-2022/
So, who's going to write this same article next week?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Adamo politics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
a) I agree that some extra sound is neeed. Paddon already added "sound amplifier" to his electric car, keeping same sound just making it louder. I'd say it's a better solution than putting artificial V12 sound or something. Not quite sure his current sound is all that great
b) Obviously you are not following EV cars much. Yes lithium batteries need certain temperature range to work best.... which is why the whole difficulty of efficient EV design is battery temperature control (and aerodynamics). Since Tesla S introduction 9 years ago integrated fluid-based battery temperature management has become standard on EVs. Basically no single non-basic EV today does not have it.
Those work at +55 and at -20 as well. For too high temperature it's only a question of cooling sizing, bigger radiator and bigger water pump... for too low it's a question of how much electricity you use to warm up the battery. If effiiency/range is not a big concern (like in a rally car) this is not a problem. Certainly not compared to current cars with white-hot turbos and red-hot exhausts on full ALS running trough the length of the car (guess what makes the car go +55 on Acropolis)
c) Sure, that's just a technicality though. Check out what forces F1 crash structure can take and what size it is.
I like watching steam engines too... or sailboat racing for that matter. Don't have a problem watching EV rally car.
I watch WRC since 1984.
Of all cars, my favorite ones are the past generation of WRC with mechanical diffs, in 2015-2016, due to crazy sliding angles.
But, the most spectacular cars ever, due to insane speeds, are the current ones. More spectacular than any previous car, including GrB.
Is it sure that the right thing to do is to change them to something more heavy, more expensive and slower?
The current cars are such an epic success that we are now down to 2 manus, maybe 1,5 next year.
(EDIT: Current rules were great in 2017 (5 manus!), and the first 3 years of the cycle. These last two extra years they are overdue for replacement)
So obviously you need to change something. Hybrid by itself does not necessarily lead to them being slower.
Lack of active central diff will, as well as some reduced suspension travel and less aero. Not sure about suspension travel but the other two are the two biggest cost drivers.
Active diff due to zillion settings that require tons of very expensive testing.
Aero due to the cost of replacing carbon parts that get knocked off.
In terms of sliding 2022 should be closer to 2015-2016 than current ones due to the dif change.
55 degrees is normal in any car without insulation in Greece in summer, even with its engine out of operation. With exhaust working the temperatures are higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I know about the temperature control stuff, this is why I said about "a solution". However, this is extra weight and extra weight is murder to the drivability and endurance, especially in places like Greece, Turkey and Cyprus.
Regarding roll-cages, I would first like to see the cost of the technical solution before saying "just a technicality". And, mainly, the cost for lower categories.
My main concern is not WRC. It is the lower categories. Lower categories are already far too expensive for young drivers and this is the main reason the sport is slowly dying all around the world. I am afraid that electric cars will accelerate the decline.
I also like sailing and actually I am into it. And what I love most is the combination of the effort, the view of the wild sea and the noise from the wind and the sails when I am out there with 6 or 7 on Beaufort scale. If suddenly someone put earplugs on me so that I could not listen to the noise, I would not regard it sailing but a very bad joke. It is the same with rallying. If someone made me wear earplugs while driving my rally car or spectating, I would feel that one of the most important ingredients of the whole procedure is missing. Try it for yourself. Next time you go to watch WRC or drive your rally car, wear earplugs.
And finally, my opinion about cars is the one that Walter Rohrl has expressed: The most important thing in driving a car is that it has low weight. If someone hasn't driven a 680 kg car, even if mediocre in every other sector, I don't expect him to have any understanding of what Rorhl said. However, Rohrl spoke the truth.
EDIT. Resembling a Gr2 or Gr4 rally car with a steam engine?! Have you ever been in one? This is not a rhetorical question, I am actually asking to find out the level of experience, because to me the biggest mistake I have made in this life is when I sold my Gr2 to go to more modern cars.
Maybe the new tubular frames of the cars can be designed to a lower weight in order to compensate the weight of the batteries?
Before the current cars we had also just 2 manufacturers + m-sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I think we have 3 Manus + M-sport: Citroen, VW and Hyundai.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Sent from my Redmi Note 5 using Tapatalk
Yeh, except for 2016 when Citroen took a year off to develop the C3...and Meeke won two rallies :D
Looks good to me in terms of speed and handling. The problem is the noise, but then I don’t like fake noise either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dug83
Yes an no.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
2022Hybrids will be too old technic if used until 2027... Manus will go away...
It will be history repeating; 3-4 manufacturers, if we're lucky - and that is par for the course. For all the good intentions the WRCar formula brought, apart from the early years, it hasn't been what you'd hoped. And in it's final year, we have 3*; Hyundai, Toyota & M-Sport - as opposed to 1997; Subaru, Mitsubishi, Ford & Toyota with a mid/late season debut.
How many will we see next year - the usual 3? And how many extra will join? Matton doesn't really fill me with confidence.
Such nonsense......Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
You do know several teams have commited to F1 until 2025, with hybrid technologic, right?!
And do you know aswell most are sure beyond 2025 hybrid PU's will continue (they want it more hybridisation, but combustion focused nonetheless). So if its good enough for F1 I really dont see how it cannot be for WRC.
Manufacturers likely would like to have their own input in developing the hybrid element, and maybe the role of the hybrid element will be increased. Also shortening the cycle would open the door for moving to electric cars, if the world is ready for that and manufacturers are interested. Meanwhile, they can still just extend the homologation cycle (like they did with the current cars, which were supposed to run only for three years initially)
True!Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
But FE (Formula Electric) has more "real" manufacturers involved than F1...
Rallying is way different PR-wise than F1.
Rally cars must present road cars, otherwise we could continue with petrol cars forever. That (old fashion benzine cars) would be my ideal scenario.
Maybe, just maybe, something the sport needs to look into the immediate future:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/i...tic-fuels-2022
All new Ford vehicles will be electric by the end of the decade.
Make of that what you will.
In Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
ah - missed that bit. Still a significant move though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
A bit offtopic, but I think relevant nonetheless.
Ferrari as just confirmed its awaited official endurance racing return, after so many years out, starting from 2023.
So maybe hybrids are the right choice after all.
Well they, (the FiA/ ACO) are doing something right; Peugeot, Toyota, Porsche, Audi, Glickenhaus, and now Ferrari.......all in the top class. That's very good...hopefully they all turn up.
Is it the right signal to send young drivers that 2wd cars will no longer have a championship to fight for?
They will, in ERC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
The current JWRC doesn’t seem to get anyone’s career anywhere
Evans, Tidemand and Lefebvre, champions 2012-2014 are the last JWRC champions to start in a WRC car...
It's no wonder, it's been about a decade in whichs the championship to play the junior role for WRC was ERC/IRC.
If a driver gets the budget together for JWRC and wins it, they have nowhere to go, unless they can triple(?) their budget and get in WRC2/3. I think that gap has stopped the progress of many drivers. Meanwhile, there's also a new car to learn, 4WD, more setup and more speed.
Now it will be more expensive to get a budget for a WRC3 Junior season, but at the same time, you will be closer to the level of where you need to be the year after.
I wouldn't mind having a FWD cup somewhere as well, but I understand there cannot be an endless amount of them.
I copy&pasted this opinion from the Audi thread, because it refers to the future of rallying. On the one hand I agree with you about a slow death of the rally sport. But on the other hand... we are in the middle of the coronavirus crisis, the economy is down, but at the same time:Quote:
Originally Posted by scn
1) I have just seen a provisional entry list for Rallye le Touquet, the first round of 2021 French rally championship, and, believe it or not, there are over 260 crews with 36 R5 cars on it!
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ObY...S6Q2JK5mwsESAk
2) I have just seen entry list for Rally Il Ciocco, the first round of 2021 Italian rally championship with over 100 crews and 37 R5 cars:
https://www.cioccorally.it/wp-conten...critti_CIR.pdf
From this perspective it doesn't look like a dying sport...
https://twitter.com/belgakinen/statu...12004930641923
Quote:
Lots of interesting infos given in the new SpeedMagazine by Yves Matton about the new class pyramid. Here are a few bits:
-Two new rally3 cars should join the Fiesta in the future
-Rally5 will allow electric and hydrogen cars
-Rally1 might run on synthetic fuel as soon as 2021
-No new Rally1 manufacturer until at least 2023
-Hybrid "Boost" of Rally1 only allowed on the start line and on the exit of predetermined slow corners on stages
And way, way more informations in this single article. Always highly recommend this magazine.
Same with the huge Rally2 entries on the latest WRC events. However, could it be that when there is few events to run, the ones that can be run gather more competitors?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarek Z
it is, at least for Italy. Federation is looking for the post-covid era (hopefully 2022) fewer events that will be a bit longer (atm in Italy are quite ridiculous). So that seems to be a good trend for the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-t...hybrid-issues/
The teams have the hybrid units but the charger and software are missing.
It also says the cost of a hybrid unit is 100 000 euros (not 500 000 like mentioned somewhere in discussions) and the system will gather energy during road section to be used on stages and city sections.
To me even 100k is pretty expensive.. as the system isn't something revolutionary..
Toyota Motor Co could have done it a lot cheaper and faster as they have been building hybrids for 20 years..
But let's see how the tests will go from now on.
I'd like to see your price calculations...Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
Seriously any system is hugely expensive if it is made in small numbers, in this case essentially in single units mainly because all the R&D costs is not dispersed over huge quantity of the units. The very same system would cost fraction of the price if it was made in hundreds of thousands. Saying "that's expensive" is the easiest thing one can do but building something cheaper usually turns out to be a much bigger issue.
Just some random numbers...
Let's say you have five people working on the project. The cost of them including all taxes, insurance, tools (including software), building etc. is let's say 10k Euro/month/person. They work on that for one year. that's roughly 2,5 million Euro. Then you build prototypes and test them. Those are hugely expensive, let's say you spend 1 million on them. You have 3,5 million Euro R&D cost and you know you will produce maximum 50 units. That makes it 70 thousand Euro R&D cost per unit alone (without material production, delivery and of cource some profit). Make 1000 of them and it's 3500 Euro per unit. Make 100000 of them and it's 35 Euro per unit.
As TypeR says, there's nothing new or revolutionary about it. There is no reason why there should be high costs for development. There's no reason why 10 people should work a year to do some small changes to an existing system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
If the system is the same for everyone, there's no reason for it to be expensive.