Turkey 2018

Congrats to Tanak, Jarveoja and Toyota. Nice job from Neuville on the PS and despite the silly off it will be hard to forget Ogier epic win on SS10; what a show! Overall, it’s great to see we’ll probably have a big title fight till the end of this season last stage.

Btw, those complaining about Ogier or Neuville getting good results when they are more cautious in some events should look at the way Tanak behaved on this one and stop the BS. Rally it isn’t about luck; it’s about merit and Tanak, like Ogier or Neuville in other occasions, had the merit to avoid troubles and be in a good place to benefit from others mistakes.

My 2 cents on the rally roughness: it has been overrated. People perception was somehow influenced by some random images or footage (since the SD), the number of retirements or tire punctures (forgetting that some of them occurred in smoother roads and most punctures were due to WRC2 proved tire weakness) and the use of long twisty stages (which are tough by definition).

This said, there’s no doubt that Friday stages were quite rough (as many others in the WRC) but some sections (mainly mid of SS2/5 and end of SS3/6) were simply unbearable and should never been part of a modern rally; let’s hope next year those will be avoided.

i am wondering if this was good thing or bad that in addition to being twisty, rough roads were also quite narrow. I believe Latvala mentioned before event that due to narrow roads there are less options to avoid things and choose other lines. But i believe this also kept speed down and at low speed drivers have more chance to react to stuff and avoid big problems. Similar roughness at 100+kmh is quite a bit more dangerous to car than at 60kmh.

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Originally Posted by PLuto

Yes, anyone young enough can enter JWRC... With Emils experience he was biggest favourite of JWRC, but I expected he will be more masterful.

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One could think that he should outpace all others. But there´s so many factors here. In my opinion this is/was his last chance of anything on an international basis. He took it, handled it and won. Nothing is done until it´s done. And he did it.

With so many talented youngsters it´s not drive and win.

However he did manage it and in the last round (I hate to say it) he was the guy who managed speed and consistency and endurance in the best way under the really hard circumstances this rally offered for these R2 cars.

Very well deserved victory for Emil, and it will be interesting seeing him next year. Hopefully without the heavy economic pressure he will perform like the pace he has.

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Originally Posted by SubaruNorway

It's rough alright!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

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Talking about Emils´ performance...

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Originally Posted by Rally Power

My 2 cents on the rally roughness: it has been overrated. People perception was somehow influenced by some random images or footage (since the SD), the number of retirements or tire punctures (forgetting that some of them occurred in smoother roads and most punctures were due to WRC2 proved tire weakness) and the use of long twisty stages (which are tough by definition).

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From this interview (only parts related to the topic translated by me): https://sport.idnes.cz/jan-kopecky-t...motorsport_tof

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Question: How difficult was the Turkish rally which returned to the championship after eight years?

Kopecký: I have mixed feelings from it. It was an extreme event which I didn't enjoy a lot. One is afraid if the car endure that even when Fabia is really tough and can endure a lot. I was thinking about tyres, not to puncture them or wear them to the canvas. It's not the most enjoyable driving then. Everybody wants to come back to the old times of rally but those are long gone. The rules are different, the cars are different and the conditions as well. Who compares that doesn't know what he's talking about.

Question: What was crucial for the success in Turkey?

Kopecký: To get to the finish one needs some racing, thinking and luck. There was not much of racing, only in sections which were clean and it was clear that there was no risk of damage to the car. That was maximum one half of the event.

Question: Some drivers called the event a survival. Do You agree?

Kopecký: For sure it was a difficult rally. it wasn't possible to go flat out. In that case the risk of retirement was enormous.

Question: In WRC You won in the category for the fifth time of five starts. What's behind that?

Kopecký: A big thanks belongs to Škoda. They built a really robust car which has nearly no technical problems. We haven't had any technical issue which would cause a retirement. I can't remember something like that. I am enormously happy about those five victories. But again I have to repeat that I have very mixed feelings from Turkey. Already after the test on Monday the car looked after fourty kilometers like after a whole rally. That's just braking the machinery. Novadays when everyone tries to save money such an event is senseless. I don't want to dissimulate, I didn't enjoy the weekend very much. I felt myself more comfortable in all previous events than here.

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I hope I wasn’t missed in the forum but this rally was awesome to attend! Minimal spectators but excellent access points for those who attended.

The scenery was epic and of course the competition!

Who would have thought Tanak to win again and the two other boys out!


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WUUUHHUUUUUUUUU! wow, couple of years ago I didnt even dream about 3 wins in a row.


He didnt have the speed this weekend but the patience really paid off!


Im ok with ONLY one rally in the calendar being rough one, something different to others. But if I could choose between Turkey or Poland, Turkey - New Zealand...then I would definitely choose Poland or New Zealand.

crash of Torn
https://twitter.com/TorAndreBorrese/...61548818378752

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Originally Posted by Mirek

From this interview (only parts related to the topic translated by me): https://sport.idnes.cz/jan-kopecky-t...motorsport_tof

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Booo fawkin Hooooo.....Maybe he should switch to asfalt circuits...no bumps..

This bullsh*t "the cars have changed" drives me nuts..Yes that have changed, they now have un-godly amount of suspension travel and extrmemly high quality suspension---I manufacture suspension I know what it was like 20-25 years ago..220mm travel max..
So the cars have GREAT suspension and body shells they spend 5 to 7 times more man-hours reinforcing and caging and modifying....

And this man complains about "it's too rough" ?
What the fawk?

What does he want? Every event identical? Perfectly perfect stages every km so its merely full gas all the time..

Yes the WRC has changed...its full of softies and whingers.
Closeted circuit racers maybe..

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Originally Posted by Mirek

From this interview (only parts related to the topic translated by me): https://sport.idnes.cz/jan-kopecky-t...motorsport_tof

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Kajetanowicz said something similar like Kopecky on Friday:

"The second loop looked like a huge pile of stones, with route charted through it – and we have to drive on it. Even with extreme caution, it was quite easy to get a puncture and we also suffered. I think it would be really difficult to find someone who did not have any problems. You have to take a really unusual line on these roads, sometimes we have to weave on the straights. The road is unbelievably destroyed."

I saw part of the TV coverage with Anders Grøndal as commentator. He believed that Ford and Hyundai breaking more than Toyota might have to with the setup. Toyota possibly opting for stiffer setup to avoid bump-trough and reasoning it would also explain why Toyota drivers were complaining about lack of grip on friday.

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

Very well deserved victory for Emil, and it will be interesting seeing him next year. Hopefully without the heavy economic pressure he will perform like the pace he has.

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Was prize a Fiesta R5? I can’t quite remember.

Yes, and I think free gas entry fee and tyres. Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Looked on the onboard from Mikkelsen from SS11 where he got the issues.

18s into the stage he has first massive oversteer on corner exit (it's like 3rd shaper corner). 35s in he starts complaining loud that the car is behaving very strange.
Quite weird that a driveshaft/diff lasts 18s of the first stage seemingly without any big impact.

On shakedown he got gearbox/diff issue after 1 pass and I believe this is the same car that lost 2nd gear in first stage after service in Sardinia.

you can loose a driveshaft even when launching the car at stage start.It just happens.

So another "error" found in Junior Fiestas R2T, this time the external reservoirs of the dampers
http://www.rallyturkey.com/wp-conten...sion-No.-8.pdf

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Originally Posted by mknight

I saw part of the TV coverage with Anders Grøndal as commentator. He believed that Ford and Hyundai breaking more than Toyota might have to with the setup. Toyota possibly opting for stiffer setup to avoid bump-trough and reasoning it would also explain why Toyota drivers were complaining about lack of grip on friday.

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I think Mäkinen also said that.

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Originally Posted by RS

Was prize a Fiesta R5? I can’t quite remember.

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Yes.
with paid entry to JWRC events (Sweden, Portugal and Finland were mentioned)
200 tyres
fuel covered

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Originally Posted by mknight

Looked on the onboard from Mikkelsen from SS11 where he got the issues.

18s into the stage he has first massive oversteer on corner exit (it's like 3rd shaper corner). 35s in he starts complaining loud that the car is behaving very strange.
Quite weird that a driveshaft/diff lasts 18s of the first stage seemingly without any big impact.

On shakedown he got gearbox/diff issue after 1 pass and I believe this is the same car that lost 2nd gear in first stage after service in Sardinia.

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Originally Posted by dimviii

you can loose a driveshaft even when launching the car at stage start.It just happens.

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It's not strange at all. The biggest stress for the whole drivetrain comes at the start from zero speed. I would say that majority of drivestahfts and diffs get broken during starts or in first gear corners.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

It's not strange at all. The biggest stress for the whole drivetrain comes at the start from zero speed. I would say that majority of drivestahfts and diffs get broken during starts or in first gear corners.

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I though it was strange right after service if it was to be caused by an impact or wear. But I have no idea how much diagnostics they do in service (and how many sensors they have to monitor the health).

If it was just caused by a hidden manufacturing defect or something like that I get that it's not strange.

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Originally Posted by mknight

I though it was strange if it was to be caused by an impact or wear. But I have no idea how much diagnostics they do in service (and how many sensors they have to monitor the health).

If it was just caused by a hidden manufacturing defect or something like that I get that it's not strange.

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Could maybe have something to do with them running the car higher than normal, causes more stress on the drive shaft joints due to the angle they are at.

Just out of interest, did anyone on here manage to drive the stages in a rental?

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Originally Posted by Indreq

i am wondering if this was good thing or bad that in addition to being twisty, rough roads were also quite narrow. I believe Latvala mentioned before event that due to narrow roads there are less options to avoid things and choose other lines.

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Actually, the parts I’ve mentioned (after a quick check on onboards) were quite narrow (the second is where Evans/Ostberg drama took place), resulting on a harsh combination of deep roots and big stones.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

From this interview (only parts related to the topic translated by me): https://sport.idnes.cz/jan-kopecky-t...motorsport_tof

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Who am I to question Kopecky words, but from the onboards anyone can see that the most problematic sections of Friday stages weren’t that long and Saturday or Sunday SS’s were far less rough. What probably made his life harder was having to deal with a permanent rocky surface, once WRC2 tyres are still looking to be more prone to punctures.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

or in first gear corners.

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specially with a lot of steering.

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Originally Posted by mknight

I though it was strange right after service if it was to be caused by an impact or wear. But I have no idea how much diagnostics they do in service (and how many sensors they have to monitor the health).

If it was just caused by a hidden manufacturing defect or something like that I get that it's not strange.

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Well, I think that there is no way how to find some internal cracks in the material during service stop because You can't do an X-Ray or ultrasonic scan there. You have to trust Your experience. The thing is that if there is a crack in the material already initiated it will most likely result in a breakage when there is the highest load. That is when there is the highest torque (acceleration on first gear from zero speed) or when there is high torque combined with an extreme angle of the driveshaft joint (full steering at jump landing as the most extreme case).

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Originally Posted by dimviii

specially with a lot of steering.

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Yes, I know that on asphalt with gr.N Civic You can nearly brake the driveshaft at will...

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Originally Posted by dimviii

specially with a lot of steering.

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i am driving competitively off-road and there sure way to break driveshaft or diff is when slipping tire suddenly finds traction. Especially on low gears when lot of torque is applied. Could be similar thing on 1st gear corners also in rally - quite slowly rotating tires at full engine power (= huge torque applied) and if thread catches at some edge of embedded rock then it easily may break something. At higher speeds torque is substantially smaller. And torque is what breaks things.

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Originally Posted by Mirek

Yes, I know that on asphalt with gr.N Civic You can nearly brake the driveshaft at will...

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True. Strangely, when i did some light hobby-rallying 2003-2007 (FWD Kadett GSI, 190hp) then most driveshafts i broke during winter, on spikes (swedish rally tire). Perhaps because i drove very little on tarmac...

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Originally Posted by AnttiL

I also have to say I like the idea of having one slower and rougher rally in the calendar. The team with the most durable car can shine, and also drivers who can manage a more sensible speed.

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100% agree! Rally is not a circuit racing and sometimes you need to lift the right leg....tactical approach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq59W8iJJIo

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Originally Posted by Ucci

100% agree! Rally is not a circuit racing and sometimes you need to lift the right leg....tactical approach.

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Having said that, you must consider the small amount of competitors. Only those having enough money to spend on a car in an one off rally, more or less useless after such rally.

There´s been much talk like black and white. I´m not against different kinds of rallies, but much of what have been seen from Turkey isn´t in favour for more of this hard ad ruff kind of rallies.

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https://www.petrolheads.gr/images/sm...lipssealed.gif copied from French forum


Thierry Neuville tackles Ford and Ogier: "It gets a little heavy, their tactics"
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Thierry Neuville perfectly accomplished his Sunday mission by winning, yesterday, the 5 bonus points of the ultimate Power Stage. "We drove absolutely," he exclaimed, pleased with himself, but was also upset about the attitude of Ogier and Ford.

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He has not yet digested his abandonment the day before while leading the Rally Turkey: "We deserved to win here, we had prepared very well.We were the strongest, but a mechanical element in decided otherwise, we win together and we lose together ... "

Less than twenty-four hours after a left front suspension spring was passed through the hood of his Hyundai, Thierry gave us the reasons for the technical failure that cost him very big points. "One element of the shock absorber has unscrewed with shocks, not the fault of Hyundai but of our subcontractor (Editor's note: the company Ext)."

In the end, despite his withdrawal, the Belgian is still doing well by losing only 10 units, less than half of his advantage which remains 23 units on Seb Ogier and now 13 on Ott Tanak: "This could have been worse indeed, thanks to Seb for his mistake, we can see that he was not focused on the images, and now M-Sport has allowed him to recover a point by sacrificing Evans, who is starting to get some. This shows that Seb is afraid of not being able to gain his own strength.They do us honor, and I am convinced that if it is lost for him, he will prefer to help his friend Tanak for me not to be a champion. "

For his part, Hayden Paddon (3rd) and Andreas Mikkelsen (5th) have not been of any help for our compatriot. "I was hoping they would push a bit further into the Power Stage to at least take points in Tanak, the Estonian called me a cuckold in Germany, but what about him here? scratch (Editor's note: The Estonian actually signed two) when Ogier and I spun on Friday night. "

Bitter, Thierry Neuville balance. But claims to have as many chances of being crowned at the end of the year as before the Turkish event: "75%, that has not changed, we will be in England, we are going to have trouble in Spain. Australia, we will be competitive there too, but because of the sweeping phenomenon there, I would prefer to go to the championship final with 5 points behind 5 and to open the road on Friday. "

We are not there yet. There are still three races, 90 points to hand out and we now know that none of the three drivers started in the title race will be crowned in Wales in three weeks.

I cannot blame Neuville for being annoyed, to do this on one event its ok but ford is doing it all the time... maybe its in the mentality of the team to be both losers and cheaters... who knows.

cant stop laughing watching this clip

https://twitter.com/fernischumi/stat...85986134847490

Citroen team principal Pierre Budar told Autosport: "We can confirm there was a leak in exhaust gas from the catalytic converter, but after that we don't know.
"We cannot talk more about what might have happened, because simply we don't know and the car was too badly damaged.
"We will investigate further when we get it back to the factory this week, but for now all we can say is that we had a failure with the catalytic converter - that much we do know."
Breen described the moments after the fire caught, and thanked rally winner Ott Tanak for trying to help.
"It's a heart-breaker," Breen told Autosport.
"I couldn't believe it, it just went so quickly.
"Ott was first there and as soon as I saw him I thought: 'He knows what it's like, he's the right man...' after he managed to save his car when it went up in Portugal a couple of years ago.
"Without a second thought, he gave us his extinguisher, which is a pretty big thing because it could potentially have compromised his event - but that's the kind of guy Ott is.
"Neither of the extinguishers touched it and in the end Ott had to pull me away from trying to chuck bottles of water on the thing. It was unbelievable."
Breen admitted he thought the situation was under control when he reached the end of the stage and the smoke had gone.
"We turned it into 'road' mode and that knocks the anti-lag off the turbo, so instantly the turbo's running a lot, lot cooler," he explained.
"With the heat of the event and everything, I thought we had burned through a heat shield or something like that."
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/1...estroying-fire

Ogier saying almost exactly what I did about his crash:

"Maybe the energy I used in the morning contributed to a certain lack of clarity, but the bottom line is that, between two very tight corners, I didn't take in one of Julien's pacenotes, I braked too late and we slid into a tree at 5kph.

"In 99% of cases this wouldn't have mattered at all, but that ground was very soft, so that the car sank into it as soon as I tried to move forwards."

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Originally Posted by dimviii

https://www.petrolheads.gr/images/sm...lipssealed.gif copied from French forum

Bitter, Thierry Neuville balance. But claims to have as many chances of being crowned at the end of the year as before the Turkish event: "75%, that has not changed, we will be in England, we are going to have trouble in Spain. Australia, we will be competitive there too, but because of the sweeping phenomenon there, I would prefer to go to the championship final with 5 points behind 5 and to open the road on Friday. "

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As he says in GB and Australia he should be able to fight for the win, with road sweeping mostly important in Australia.

But Spain is the key, he will likely still sweep the road on friday and unless a miracle happens with the new parts coming before Spain he won't have a chance on tarmac.
He can hope that Loeb will take the win (helped by road position on Friday) and take the 25 points from Ogier/Tanak.

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Originally Posted by mknight

As he says in GB and Australia he should be able to fight for the win, with road sweeping mostly important in Australia.

But Spain is the key, he will likely still sweep the road on friday and unless a miracle happens with the new parts coming before Spain he won't have a chance on tarmac.
He can hope that Loeb will take the win (helped by road position on Friday) and take the 25 points from Ogier/Tanak.

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sweeping is not THAT important... he won from the front in Sardegnia and was leading in turkey after the sweeping stages... if he wants to be champion he must learn to win from the front.. Loeb did it all the time.

starting from the front is more of an excuse than a real reason to lose a rally apart from some rare cases.

plus running first or 2nd is not a huge difference... roads start to clear after 4-5 cars.

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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC

Ogier saying almost exactly what I did about his crash:

"Maybe the energy I used in the morning contributed to a certain lack of clarity, but the bottom line is that, between two very tight corners, I didn't take in one of Julien's pacenotes, I braked too late and we slid into a tree at 5kph.

"In 99% of cases this wouldn't have mattered at all, but that ground was very soft, so that the car sank into it as soon as I tried to move forwards."

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While the off itself was a bit of bad luck you can question his tactics in that stage. At that point he was 4th, 8s behind Latvala, 9.8 behind Tanak and 46 behind Mikkelsen.
During the two morning stages without issues he beat Latvala by 50s, Tanak by 34s and Mikkelsen by 29s. Second run trough stages typically gives smaller gaps.

So he should have little issues catching Latvala and Tanak, while Mikkelsen would require maximum risk. Also at this point lots of cars already had issues including himself.

The Ogier of 2017 would have slowed down a bit, instead he seemingly went in about same speed as before, up on Tanak by 6s on last split before crash (half way trough stage). Like in germany on Saturday, he seems to have lost his cool calculated approach.

Y

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

sweeping is not THAT important... he won from the front in Sardegnia and was leading in turkey after the sweeping stages... if he wants to be champion he must learn to win from the front.. Loeb did it all the time.

starting from the front is more of an excuse than a real reason to lose a rally apart from some rare cases.

plus running first or 2nd is not a huge difference... roads start to clear after 4-5 cars.

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Finally some smart words from N.O.T!! Totally agree....