Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Hang on a sec, I understand the Bibendum teams & Bernie had agreed a compromise that would allow them to race at a reduced pace in that corner.

My undersatnding of articles in Autosport online (www.autosport.com - go look for them, havn't the time myself) that Max vetoed this idea.

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Correct. From Wikipedia:

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The FIA, the sport's governing body, refused to allow a chicane to be installed, maintaining that such rule changes would be grossly unfair to the Bridgestone-shod teams, who had come prepared with properly working tyres. The Michelin teams, unable to come to a compromise with the FIA, decided not to participate.

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Ecclestone returned at about 10:55 to inform the group that Todt had refused to agree to the chicane, maintaining that it was an FIA and a Michelin problem and not his. By the time Stoddart's account of the meeting was published, Todt had already denied that he had ever been consulted, but stated that, if asked, he would not have agreed to the chicane. Furthermore, Ecclestone reported that "Mr Mosley had stated that if any attempts were made to alter the circuit, he would cancel the Grand Prix forthwith.

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Max wasn't even at the race :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because it was public, showed on millions of TV sets worldwide?!

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and max's indiscretions have been shown on millions of computer screens around the world. if that's your argument, you'd better try harder.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because it wasn't fair play, something of utmost importance in sports?!

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But it was fair play for your favourite team to systemically quash the hopes of one of its drivers to favour the other? Fair play will often be compromised in the interests of the team.
would it be fair play, for example, to divert resources from the driver 11th on the grid to favour the car in 3rd? it's common sense, but it's still not fair.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because the FIA is responsible of the sporting regulations of F1?!

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Which were not breached by mclaren in the hungarian instance, until max decided he needed to be seen to be doing something, largely because britain's new sporting hero was getting an awful lot of ink in the UK and he'd get a rub off by being seen to protect him

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because having stewards that aren't capable of doing their job (look no further than 2008 Monaco GP for a good example) doesn't mean that you should let them do whatever they do?!

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and who, might i ask, is the president of the body responsible for appointing and monitoring those stewards?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because it was hurting F1, on top of the spying affair?!

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And you really think Max's stubborn arrogance is not?

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Originally Posted by ioan

What has all this to do with Mosley playing with hookers?!

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It is utterly indicative of the man's mindset and mental processes, his understanding of issues, his lack of understanding of how those issues are perceived in the rest of the world, his priorities. do i need to go on?

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Originally Posted by ioan

It has nothing to do with it! However if some stress their brains enough than they can make it look like id Mosley is responsible for the Iraqi war! :rolleyes:

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your issue, ioan, is that the issue is larger than you understand. you talk like max is the public servant and bernie is the rich bully. it's not like that.
i don't much like bernie, either.

here are the facts: max is bernie's paid lapdog. has been for years. how do you think he got the job in the first place? it was bernie who stabbed belestre to push max's nomination through.

max was paid more than US$300 mill after bernie got the 100 year rights (for about 10 percent of the market rate) and then max had the gall to cry that potential EU litigation against FIA execs in the event of a fatality were making him move to monaco, when he clearly moved to monaco to avoid tax on his windfall. There is no legal implication for max in the event of an F1 fatality. Max still refuses to admit where his windfall came from.

Max is bernie's dog. Max has been an irretrievably bad dog. bernie's just trying to do what any owner should do to an irretrievably bad dog.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Hang on a sec, I understand the Bibendum teams & Bernie had agreed a compromise that would allow them to race at a reduced pace in that corner.

My undersatnding of articles in Autosport online (http://www.autosport.com - go look for them, havn't the time myself) that Max vetoed this idea.

As for the McCall them whatever you like Hungary incident. That affected NO OTHER COMPETITORS but themselves. What was said between drivers and teams is private (even though all teams snoop on each others transmissions).....

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That has nothing to do with f1 leaving the US however. F1 left US because a certain Ecclestone wants more money and a certain George wasn't willing to pay the huge sum.

If you want to bring up the Michelin catastrophe than the only responsibles were Michelin, not the FIA, not Bridgestone, not Ferrari nor MS! :p :
And installing a chicane would have meant advantaging the Michelin team over the Bridgestone ones, and the FIA stance was fair in the sense that F1 is a sporting competition and not Bernie's cash cow. And this brings us to what happens today in Paris with Bernie bad mouthing his "friend" (as if he ever had one).

Here's a nice view on Bernie's actions:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=34975

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because it was public,

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So using this logic, you're saying Max should also get punished because his actions are unfavourable, and public?

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Because it wasn't fair play, something of utmost importance in sports?!

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McLaren shot themselves in the foot. No need to push them over for it.

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Because the FIA is responsible of the sporting regulations of F1?!
Because having stewards that aren't capable of doing their job (look no further than 2008 Monaco GP for a good example) doesn't mean that you should let them do whatever they do?!

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Again, the punishment was totally unnecessary. It only affected the McLaren team, so it should be up to them to deal with their drivers. If only the FIA overrode stupid stewards decisions, like Alonso's 2006 Monza qualifying penalty more often.

Look at the statement issued after Hungary.
"The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally."
Completely vague. Could be tacked on to anything remotely questionable and could result in a penalty.

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Because it was hurting F1

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Not at all. Having tensions boil over between teammates ads that element of emotion and rivalry to F1. No need to punish that. It is not like they were putting each other in dangerous situations.

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Originally Posted by ioan

That has nothing to do with f1 leaving the US however. F1 left US because a certain Ecclestone wants more money and a certain George wasn't willing to pay the huge sum.

If you want to bring up the Michelin catastrophe than the only responsibles were Michelin, not the FIA, not Bridgestone, not Ferrari nor MS! :p :
And installing a chicane would have meant advantaging the Michelin team over the Bridgestone ones, and the FIA stance was fair in the sense that F1 is a sporting competition and not Bernie's cash cow. And this brings us to what happens today in Paris with Bernie bad mouthing his "friend" (as if he ever had one).

Here's a nice view on Bernie's actions:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=34975

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That's a great picture of Bernie in that article, is he on his way to Paris with that knife? :laugh:

Your right about the responsibilities ioan, but at least some were making the effort to put on a race.....

Anyway, I see more toys flying out the mods pram, so lets just leave 2005 Indygate where it belongs, back in Indianapolis 2005.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7430939.stm
Apparently Mosley won the vote.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7430939.stm
Apparently Mosley won the vote.

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Is anyone that surprised? Can't wait to hear his press conference.

I'm dissapointed Mickey T didn't make it to Paris in time. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

and max's indiscretions have been shown on millions of computer screens around the world. if that's your argument, you'd better try harder.

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But not on the public television and without him agreeing to it. This is called intrusion in someones privacy and those who watched the videos show a lack of decency.

I needn't try any harder you're doing it for me! :p :

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

But it was fair play for your favourite team to systemically quash the hopes of one of its drivers to favour the other? Fair play will often be compromised in the interests of the team.
would it be fair play, for example, to divert resources from the driver 11th on the grid to favour the car in 3rd? it's common sense, but it's still not fair.

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The time when Ferrari's favoritism was evident they were hit by the FIA, so I don't see what your problem is?! I suppose you would have left Austria 2002 go by without caring if the FIA intervened or not, the same way you would have liked to be in Hungary 2007! And you have the nerve to give lessons about how Max should do his work!

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

Which were not breached by mclaren in the hungarian instance, until max decided he needed to be seen to be doing something, largely because britain's new sporting hero was getting an awful lot of ink in the UK and he'd get a rub off by being seen to protect him

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May I remind you that after Austria 2002 there was a rule that said that any action that brings the sport into disrepute will be punished?! You seem to lack knowledge of the rules, but you still go ahead and criticize the rulers.

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

and who, might i ask, is the president of the body responsible for appointing and monitoring those stewards?

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It's not like he is having a personal interview with each of them, they are appointed by the race clerk and it is clear that the president of the responsible body doesn't tolerate their mediocrity and didn't hesitate to go against their wrong decisions.

So, if I may ask, what exactly are you trying to criticize Max for? because he dared to correct the ineptitudes of the stewards?!

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

And you really think Max's stubborn arrogance is not?

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What arrogance?
Was he arrogant because he didn't yield to underhanded actions involving his private life?!
Or was he arrogant because he had the nerve to call a cheater a cheater and slap Ron and McLaren when they were lying and cheating around!

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

It is utterly indicative of the man's mindset and mental processes, his understanding of issues, his lack of understanding of how those issues are perceived in the rest of the world, his priorities. do i need to go on?

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And you have the professional background to make comments on someone's mindset and mental processes?

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

your issue, ioan, is that the issue is larger than you understand. you talk like max is the public servant and bernie is the rich bully. it's not like that.
i don't much like bernie, either.

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You have no idea whatsoever about who you are talking with, and even less the right to judge me, but given that you already did it i can't change that anymore.
The way I see it is the way I think it is, the fact that you see it otherwise doesn't mean that I don't understand it, it just means that I judge things based on different values that does you use in your thinking process.
You see, it is simple and I didn't need to insult you to make that clear. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

here are the facts: max is bernie's paid lapdog. has been for years. how do you think he got the job in the first place? it was bernie who stabbed belestre to push max's nomination through.

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And?! It might be like that, and the way I see it "the lap dog" had enough of Bernie's fiddling, so Bernie decided to replay the Balestre card and change Max with a more docile "lap dog". And I hope his coup won't work and we get to see F1 without Bernard one day with the money he poaches going to the poorer teams in order not to repeat the Super Aguri F1 case.

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

max was paid more than US$300 mill after bernie got the 100 year rights (for about 10 percent of the market rate) and then max had the gall to cry that potential EU litigation against FIA execs in the event of a fatality were making him move to monaco, when he clearly moved to monaco to avoid tax on his windfall. There is no legal implication for max in the event of an F1 fatality. Max still refuses to admit where his windfall came from.

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He might have earned the money you talk about, I might even believe you, as I have no idea about this being or not being the case

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Originally Posted by Mickey T

Max is bernie's dog. Max has been an irretrievably bad dog. bernie's just trying to do what any owner should do to an irretrievably bad dog.

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Finally we agree that Bernie wants Max out because he didn't play Bernie's game.

Cheers :)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

That's a great picture of Bernie in that article, is he on his way to Paris with that knife? :laugh:

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It's a picture that made it's appearance during the Indy 2005 week end! ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Your right about the responsibilities ioan, but at least some were making the effort to put on a race.....

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But did you know that if there was no race or a farce as we got than Bernie as the organizer had to pay back the money the televisions paid him for that race?! :rolleyes:
This may give you a clue why Bernard was trying so hard to have a race with 20 cars! Not for you, not for me for much more than that! ;)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Anyway, I see more toys flying out the mods pram, so lets just leave 2005 Indygate where it belongs, back in Indianapolis 2005.....

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I agree, the technical aspect were already beaten to death, so no use going back. :)

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I'm dissapointed Mickey T didn't make it to Paris in time. :laugh:

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He was trying to get over me first! ;)