Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Why not launch airstrikes against the poles. That seems to line up with your current policy.

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I actually agree with you on this one. They got one over the jews so let them enjoy it, who needs justice?

Yes getting invaded by Germany to start WW2 and then having the Soviet's come through and then have their opressive rule for a few years. The Poles really did well out of the whole deal :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rani

Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.

I agree. Israel has a historic right to this land, as the ancient Israelites lived in this area on and off for a few thousand years. I think there's a famous book about it, it'd be nice to look that one up.

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Then you'd better have a word with the Israelis I spoke to. Is it still racist when one Jewish subgroup holds strong views about another Jewish subgroup?

I can't remember the Hebrew word they used for the particular Jewish group they were referring to but I do remember them saying that they were descended from the Jews who had never left Palestine or who had migrated back there and had experience of living both under the Ottomans then the British. You probably know more about who they were referring to. And yes, their views were rather negative.

As for house demolitions take a look at the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_d...inian_conflict

It is a fact that house demolitions preceded suicide bombing and yet has done nothing to deter further terrorist attacks on Israel.

As for the Israeli claim to the land, you can't just brush out the millenia or two when the land was mainly settled by the Palestinians and claim sole rights to it.

Israel clearly has a right to exist and in peace with its neighbours. Unlike some of the other posters here I believe the responsibility for the conflict lies equally across both groups and I most certainly don't believe that if Israel were to withdraw from the Occupied Territories terrorism would become a thing of the past as the others insinuate. However as long as Israelis cannot face the darker things being done in their name I suspect the drive for peace on the Israeli side will not be strong enough.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Yes getting invaded by Germany to start WW2 and then having the Soviet's come through and then have their opressive rule for a few years. The Poles really did well out of the whole deal :rolleyes:

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I think he means that the Poles were even more anti-semetic than the Nazis and therefore Israel might be justified in bombing them....

However I do think your comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is uncalled for. Israel's policies are mainly pre-occupied with self-defense and preserving the safety of its own population however misguided their methods may be. Nazi Germany was plain expansionist.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Then you'd better have a word with the Israelis I spoke to. Is it still racist when one Jewish subgroup holds strong views about another Jewish subgroup?

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Yeah it's still racist. I suppose they were Ashkenazim and were talking about Mizrahim which means easterners. It's just as racist as a christian being racist against another christian of a different race.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Yeah they do exist, I think that this kind of attitude is not an Israeli-only trait. These people can be found anywhere in the world in any position from Police officers to managers at fast food restaurants. They certainly do a lot of damage, and I am against this sort of behavior.

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I never suggested this was a trait solely seen in Israelis. Its the result of conscription where the army has little scope to 'quality control' its recruits. The same effect is seen in many other conflicts involving conscription such as Chechnya or Vietnam.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Those who cheat their way out of enlisting are free to leave any day if they ask me.

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Then what are your views regarding the religious right, many of whom are subsidised to the eyeballs by government social benefits and who often use religious studies to avoid the draft? Given that the same social group is often the one that is most committed politically to aggressive strategies against both the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours, they are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line.

I know that Shinui specifically campaigned about this particular issue but I haven't heard anything about them for quite some time. Where is Israel going on this one?

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Originally Posted by Rani

Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?

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What did they have to do with the Palestinians?

Jews can live quite safely both in Germany and in Finland these days, there's no compelling reason for them to emigrate to the Middle East.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Jews can live quite safely both in Germany and in Finland these days, there's no compelling reason for them to emigrate to the Middle East.

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Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there? Maybe the place can be cleared to give the Palestinian displaced somewhere to live of their own.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there? Maybe the place can be cleared to give the Palestinian displaced somewhere to live of their own.

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Wouldn't work. Many Palestinians wouldn't be able to live without the fear of indiscriminate shelling or a wall suddenly cutting them off from their job. Perhaps the grass would be just a bit too green.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I think he means that the Poles were even more anti-semetic than the Nazis and therefore Israel might be justified in bombing them....

However I do think your comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is uncalled for. Israel's policies are mainly pre-occupied with self-defense and preserving the safety of its own population however misguided their methods may be. Nazi Germany was plain expansionist.

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Very true. But still they're persecuting another race of people. It's the complete opposite to what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese had the two terrible A-bombs and though "screw this we're not getting involved in war or military conflicts on a large scale again" whereas Israel is in pole position to empathise with the Palestinians as a race who are being marginalised on the basis of race. Israel isn't rounding palestinians up and gassing them but they're just not helping the situation.

I think to understand why non-German people acted the way they did you need to understand why Hitler singled out the Jews for this treatment and why people weren't unhappy for the Jewish people to be taken out of the large cities. It wasn't because they were the most loved and adored group of religious people. Now quite frankly I can't be bothered to go and kill someone just because I may dislike their race or religion but back before WW2 the Jewish people had obviously made themselves unpopular enough in Europe for people to be complicit in having them rounded up and put into the Ghetto's.

When I was at school we studied the holocaust in History and learnt all about the leadup to the holocaust and what happened and so on. Then we went to a holocaust memorial centre and heard all about the holocaust except for why the Nazi's singled out the Jews for this horrible treatment and I think that's a silly silly thing to do. It's like having a memorial in Hiroshima and talking about how horrible it was and how horrible the USA is but forgetting to say why it happened in the first place.

Now I'll repeat the fact that I don't care for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Sikh's, Buddhists, Atheists and any other religious or non-religious groups we have going. To me they're equally worthless other than perhaps Buddhists who don't go around causing bother for anyone unless they're a repressive Burmese military government of course. I hate white people, black people, green people, purple and red people all as much. We're all equally as useless as each other because we insist on killing each other for no real bloody reason.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Wouldn't work. Many Palestinians wouldn't be able to live without the fear of indiscriminate shelling or a wall suddenly cutting them off from their job. Perhaps the grass would be just a bit too green.

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True, and Israelis would miss the thrill of leaving for work in the morning and wondering if they'd make it there and back or seeing their kids grow up extra fast and become a little haunted as they do their active service.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

True, and Israelis would miss the thrill of leaving for work in the morning and wondering if they'd make it there and back or seeing their kids grow up extra fast and become a little haunted as they do their active service.

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But is the problem for the Israeli's not partly self made?

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Very true. But still they're persecuting another race of people. It's the complete opposite to what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese had the two terrible A-bombs and though "screw this we're not getting involved in war or military conflicts on a large scale again" whereas Israel is in pole position to empathise with the Palestinians as a race who are being marginalised on the basis of race. Israel isn't rounding palestinians up and gassing them but they're just not helping the situation.

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The Israeli mindset is totally different to quite possibly anyone else on the planet though.

Whether you agree with the idea of a Jewish state or not, you've got a group of people who have worked bloody hard through the centuries to achieve this goal and they're not going to let go of it for any reason, least of all through their own weakness.

People like you and I can see that the Israelis are never going to lose to the Arabs in any war, that they can afford to give back the Occupied Territories in return for peace (although I still don't think that will be enough for some Palestinians) but then we're not the ones who would stand to suffer if the Israelis mess up and end up losing. And if the Israelis lose they know they will lose everything, not just wait like most other states can to pick themselves up off the floor and start again. There will be no second chance for Israel and that isn't something you can say of Germany or Japan or any other country you can name.

I don't think the Israelis are persecuting the Palestinians for the fun of it like the Jews themselves were in Europe, they are doing so for several reasons. Firstly they've fooled themselves into thinking that their presence in the Occupied Territories is only going to be temporary since '67 and a lot of their policies regarding infrastructure provision etc are certainly based along those lines. Secondly they've started to settle the land with Israeli citizens which obviously goes against their occupation only being temporary. Thirdly in order to defend the settlers the Israeli army has to take pretty extreme measures, usually against the Palestinians but recently against settlers too.

In short I don't think the Israelis have been able to admit that they are in fact administering an empire however small it may be. As such they've totally failed to learn from other empires, the Palestinians have risen up against them due to the terrible conditions they live in and due to inexperience the Israelis don't know how to react except through violence. The problem with that is that violence begets violence.

As for the Nazis, they didn't single out the Jews at all. Anyone classified as being undesirable was targetted including gays, communists/socialists, intellectuals, Romany Gypsies etc etc. There is a long history of anti-semetism in Europe, in fact the Nazis had to ask the French to tone it down a bit when they ordered that all French Jews be handed over to be liquidated. The French were too brutal you see, even for Nazi tastes. The Hungarians and Poles were no different. It doesn't surprise me that Jews who managed to escape from those countries find it uncomfortable visiting them even now, let alone settling back there Eki-style.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

But is the problem for the Israeli's not partly self made?

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Is the same not true of the Palestinians?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Is the same not true of the Palestinians?

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But at the end of the day if the fighting stops right now who has the ability to live happily? Not the Palestinians.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

The Israeli mindset is totally different to quite possibly anyone else on the planet though.

Whether you agree with the idea of a Jewish state or not, you've got a group of people who have worked bloody hard through the centuries to achieve this goal and they're not going to let go of it for any reason, least of all through their own weakness.

People like you and I can see that the Israelis are never going to lose to the Arabs in any war, that they can afford to give back the Occupied Territories in return for peace (although I still don't think that will be enough for some Palestinians) but then we're not the ones who would stand to suffer if the Israelis mess up and end up losing. And if the Israelis lose they know they will lose everything, not just wait like most other states can to pick themselves up off the floor and start again. There will be no second chance for Israel and that isn't something you can say of Germany or Japan or any other country you can name.

I don't think the Israelis are persecuting the Palestinians for the fun of it like the Jews themselves were in Europe, they are doing so for several reasons. Firstly they've fooled themselves into thinking that their presence in the Occupied Territories is only going to be temporary since '67 and a lot of their policies regarding infrastructure provision etc are certainly based along those lines. Secondly they've started to settle the land with Israeli citizens which obviously goes against their occupation only being temporary. Thirdly in order to defend the settlers the Israeli army has to take pretty extreme measures, usually against the Palestinians but recently against settlers too.

In short I don't think the Israelis have been able to admit that they are in fact administering an empire however small it may be. As such they've totally failed to learn from other empires, the Palestinians have risen up against them due to the terrible conditions they live in and due to inexperience the Israelis don't know how to react except through violence. The problem with that is that violence begets violence.

As for the Nazis, they didn't single out the Jews at all. Anyone classified as being undesirable was targetted including gays, communists/socialists, intellectuals, Romany Gypsies etc etc. There is a long history of anti-semetism in Europe, in fact the Nazis had to ask the French to tone it down a bit when they ordered that all French Jews be handed over to be liquidated. The French were too brutal you see, even for Nazi tastes. The Hungarians and Poles were no different. It doesn't surprise me that Jews who managed to escape from those countries find it uncomfortable visiting them even now, let alone settling back there Eki-style.

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If you'd ask me back after WW2 if I agreed (I wasn't born then of course!!!!) I would say they don't deserve their own state because that land belonged to someone else. But now I think they deserve their state because they're there and clearly aren't going to move.

Like you say violence begets violence and that's really what it boils down to.

I think Israel needs to accept that if they give most Palestinians what they want then the bloodshed will eventually end. Reconciliation is possible. You don't see the French constantly bitching about how Germany attacked them in two world wars and the same with Japan and the US. At the end of the day when you've got a roof over your head, a job to go to, food in your belly and no apaches hovering overhead you'd be pretty bloody happy and the idea of strapping plastic explosives to your body and killing some Israeli's will seem a pretty dumb thing to do. There will always be a few rotten apples but their own kind will take care of them IF they're happy. Most people just want food, shelter and happiness!

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Originally Posted by Daniel

But at the end of the day if the fighting stops right now who has the ability to live happily? Not the Palestinians.

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True, but the Palestinians have also rejected many good deals. The peace deal Rani quoted at the start of this thread isn't a fantasy of his, it was on the table in front of Yasser Arafat with people like Clinton imploring him to sign it.

If you read it through its unbelievable generous to the Palestinians given the real life politics of the region. They'll probably never be offered anything like it again.

But instead of accepting it, Yasser Arafat decided to push it away, demanding even more, and that wasn't the only time the Palestinians have screwed up negotiations either.

And also, if we have peace now the Palestinians have more to gain economically simply because they're starting from a lower level. The occasional bomb notwithstanding, the Israelis don't have as much to gain from peace as they do.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

At the end of the day when you've got a roof over your head, a job to go to, food in your belly and no apaches hovering overhead you'd be pretty bloody happy and the idea of strapping plastic explosives to your body and killing some Israeli's will seem a pretty dumb thing to do. There will always be a few rotten apples but their own kind will take care of them IF they're happy. Most people just want food, shelter and happiness!

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Absolutely 110% true. The problem is getting from here to there!

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there?

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No compelling reason to emigrate either, regardless of religion, which was the point. Only a fool or someone with a death wish would emigrate from peaceful Finland into a war-torn area like the Middle East IMO.

I can understand if East-European Jews emigrate to Israel, but many well-off North American and West-European Jews have moved to Israel as well, which I don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I can understand if East-European Jews emigrate to Israel, but many well-off North American and West-European Jews have moved to Israel as well, which I don't understand.

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Because people have things other than simple material wellbeing that are important to them? Like the concept of a homeland perhaps?

As a species we'd be pretty low if all we considered were simple economic factors in choosing how to live our lives. In fact life would be quite miserable.

I may not agree with some of the things the Israelis are doing but I can certainly empathise with their desire for a homeland. They aren't living in a warzone because thats their idea of fun Eki. They are living there because they feel that Israel is a place and more importantly an ideal worth living and fighting for and a degree of danger is a price worth paying.

There are plenty of Jews for whom Israel isn't worth the danger, they're the Jews still living around the world.

As a point of interest, have you ever spoken to a Jew about these issues?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

True, but the Palestinians have also rejected many good deals. The peace deal Rani quoted at the start of this thread isn't a fantasy of his, it was on the table in front of Yasser Arafat with people like Clinton imploring him to sign it.

If you read it through its unbelievable generous to the Palestinians given the real life politics of the region. They'll probably never be offered anything like it again.

But instead of accepting it, Yasser Arafat decided to push it away, demanding even more, and that wasn't the only time the Palestinians have screwed up negotiations either.

And also, if we have peace now the Palestinians have more to gain economically simply because they're starting from a lower level. The occasional bomb notwithstanding, the Israelis don't have as much to gain from peace as they do.

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Being that the PLO charter called for the destuction of Israel, I don't things will change much in the near future. Most countries with the might of Israel would have removed the Palestinians from the face of the earth after enduring what they have.

Yet Israel still tries for peace and extends the olive branch, which is most often burned rather than accepted.

The UN set a precedent for trying to negotiate with terrorists years ago when dealing with the PLO. I can't help but wonder if the Palestinians hope that this will continue by continued terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis.



And for anyone that does not understand the difference between a military use of force with collateral damage, and intentioal killing of innocents, remember that when the next conflict arises in your country. War is not a fun thing by any means, but laws of war have a need to exist.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Being that the PLO charter called for the destuction of Israel

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That disappeared ages ago, more than a decade in fact.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

That disappeared ages ago, more than a decade in fact.

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My point being that it took until 1993(or was it 1994?) for them to make this move, with leadership being the same as the group that refused Israel the right to exist.

It is rather difficult to extend trust and attempts at peace immediately after recognizing a legitimate government that has shown such one sided views in the past. It is even more difficult when the attacks and terrorism tactics essentially remain the same as the previous organization which was not recognized at legitimate.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

And for anyone that does not understand the difference between a military use of force with collateral damage, and intentioal killing of innocents, remember that when the next conflict arises in your country. War is not a fun thing by any means, but laws of war have a need to exist.

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So you don't think that acts committed by the members of Irgun or the Stern Gang against the British in Palestine in 1946 and earlier constituted acts of terrorism?

Acts of terrorism like The King David Hotel bombing, another link in case you missed it first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

or how about this one

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm

Rani, do you think that Menahen Begin was a Terrorist?

i'm not in to politics but i just don't know what they want out there... hope they know what they are doing coz from my end i could sometimes relate them to children who definitely needs guidance...

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Originally Posted by gospeedracer

i'm not in to politics but i just don't know what they want out there... hope they know what they are doing coz from my end i could sometimes relate them to children who definitely needs guidance...

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You maybe right, giving guidance to children seems to be easier to do than to adult except teaching them to drive a truck

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

They are living there because they feel that Israel is a place and more importantly an ideal worth living and fighting for and a degree of danger is a price worth paying.

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I bet those people call Muslims "fundamentalists" and wonder why Palestinians want their own land too. Kettle, pot, black.

We are living in AD 2007, not BC 2007. People should really stop taking religions so seriously that they even chose the place they live in based on religion.

I think (probably as I only have one) any religion teach their adherent to respect others and live peacefully.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I bet those people call Muslims "fundamentalists" and wonder why Palestinians want their own land too. Kettle, pot, black.

We are living in AD 2007, not BC 2007. People should really stop taking religions so seriously that they even chose the place they live in based on religion.

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Eki posts like this indicate how much you fail to grasp the complexity of the issue.

The place of Israel in the Jewish identity is largely a secular one despite Judaism mainly being identified as a religion rather than a race. Many of the people who fought to see Israel established weren't particularly religious at all.

Palestinians view themselves as Palestinian first, Muslim and Christian second. Entities like Hamas that are overtly religious in nature are only a recent development.

Religion is only a veneer. The conflict is about two different people squabbling over the same piece of land.

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

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But IMHO religion is the problem, nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Eki posts like this indicate how much you fail to grasp the complexity of the issue.

The place of Israel in the Jewish identity is largely a secular one despite Judaism mainly being identified as a religion rather than a race. Many of the people who fought to see Israel established weren't particularly religious at all.

Palestinians view themselves as Palestinian first, Muslim and Christian second. Entities like Hamas that are overtly religious in nature are only a recent development.

Religion is only a veneer. The conflict is about two different people squabbling over the same piece of land.

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

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You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

But IMHO religion is the problem, nothing else.

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Why?

How can you portray this as simple Muslim vs Jew when there are Muslim Arab Israeli citizens who vote, pay tax and serve (voluntarily) in the Israeli army? Many have been killed in the Occupied Territories serving Israel.

What is the role of Christian Arabs on both sides of the conflict in your view then?

Its easy to classify it as a religious war and certainly religion is used by both sides to stir up emotions and support and make the conflict worse, I'm not denying that, but at its core its a squabble over land between two differing people. The majority of the conflict has had a secular flavour to it, its only in the past decade when religious extremists have become louder.

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Originally Posted by Eki

You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

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Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

Judaism isn't a missionary religion. Christianity is. Lutherans can be Lutherans without tracing a family history back to Germany. Jews feel an ancestral link to Israel because the assumption is that since Jews originate from Israel and there is hardly any religious conversion into the religion all Jews theoretically can trace a family history to Israel.

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere. However the reality is that Israel exists and is not going to disappear and they have to find a way of coexisting with their neighbours and vice-versa. None of the things you are posting helps at all in finding a way out of this mess.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

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I'm not. I'm suggesting that Jews and Muslims should relax, wake up, smell the coffee and realize it's AD 2007 and not BC 2007.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere.

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Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?

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My point is, it's stupid to move to areas that can't naturally support human populations.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

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Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

Then what are your views regarding the religious right, many of whom are subsidised to the eyeballs by government social benefits and who often use religious studies to avoid the draft? Given that the same social group is often the one that is most committed politically to aggressive strategies against both the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours, they are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line.

I know that Shinui specifically campaigned about this particular issue but I haven't heard anything about them for quite some time. Where is Israel going on this one?

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Israel seems to change its mind about this in every election. You have to also differentiate between two kinds of very religious jews. Hared Jews (those are the stereotypical jews with black clothing and hats) and religious national jews who are just as religious but also believe in many "universal" values like the fact that they should be in the army. A lot of the latter are the ones that live in the territories as they belive Israel should be from the sea to the Jordan river as said in the bible. These guys go to the army and are usually very motivated to go to the most elite units. Shinui was actually dismantled but this tear in our society still exists. If you ask for my opinion I don't like the fact they "are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line."
In their view, the fact they are practicing their religion is also helping Israel defend itself by means of summoning devine intervention.

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Originally Posted by Rani

Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.

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It's all about adaptation to your surroundings. Non-materialistic things should be the easiest to overcome since they are just states of mind and not concrete.

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

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Originally Posted by Eki

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

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Yes, its all infertile desert over there which is why Israel and the Occupied Territories' main exports are still agricultural products. Ever heard of Jaffa oranges?

Not really been to the Middle East to see what its really like have you....

Rani thanks for that assessment, did Shinui disappear because 'demand' for its line on that issue disappeared or as the result of politicking/backstabbing?