Has there been an accusation of breaking into the Ferrari HQ and stealing info? That's a new one on me.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
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Has there been an accusation of breaking into the Ferrari HQ and stealing info? That's a new one on me.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I am jealous--you never said that about me when others were screwing up my name and bashing in on me, and just who was pastthe meat before he became passedthemeat?Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
And you are always picking on Daniel; if Daniel can be scolded then so should many many others. Besides Daniel has a nice simple name, unlike this name with more than three words all strung together. And please do not tell me he came up with this name all on his own....I am sure he has got some manual or cd from somebody somewhere
Where is the justice? Sounds like the FIA needs to raid your computer
Clear favoritism and I am calling auntie Damon Hill to add this to his complaints :D
Did I say that?Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
You didn't need to, you made clear your inferrence by this little example.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
...made clear your inference :rotflmao: If you wish to see it that way then I meant it that way. Whatever. The issue was the posession of someone elses goods and not making any benefit from it. The fact that I cleared it up with arrows should have kind of let you know what I was talking about......Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Calm down, your spitting venom all over my screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Just when I thought it be safe to put my well worn copy of the prince back on the shelf....oh well,
I was reading the story of the time of a certain village was in turmoil with open rebellion everywhere and the prince sends in a certain character to "take care of da dirty rats". After much taking care, and other executions, da prince gets wind of the people outcry, so he shows up, expresses dismay and disgust at the gusto of the faithful servant, and has the faithful servant terminated with extreme prejudice aka "taken care of", much to the relief and joy of the remaining few, who swore blind loyalty forever to their merciful prince
Now, turning our attention to the village in turmoil, we have the Flavio who has rocked the boat upon occaision, and RD who has rocked the boat much more seriously. Flavio is the business partner of bernie and bernie is the god of the sport and friend of Max, but RD is the one big pain in the but who can not get his golden boy choker to win the wdc, much to the dismay of revenue---So what to do?
The investigation based on character references of Bernie as to flavio's outstanding character will reveal that Flavio, unlike RD, took all appropriate measures to maintain the sanctuality of the sport......other details to be worked out....
Daniel, excellent forum here for credit card fans...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
http://forum.creditorweb.com/ :D
:rotflmao:Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63874Quote:
Following the notification of the FIA for the ING Renault F1 Team representatives to appear in front of the World Council, the team wishes to clarify the situation.
On the 6th September 2007 it came to our attention that an engineer (Mr Phil Mackereth) who joined the team from McLaren in Sept 2006 had brought with him some information that was considered to be proprietary to McLaren. This information was contained on old style floppy discs and included copies of some McLaren engineering drawings and some technical spreadsheets.
This information was loaded at the request of Mr Mackereth onto his personal directory on the Renault F1 Team file system. This was done without the knowledge of anyone in authority in the team. As soon as the situation was brought to the attention of the team's technical management, the following actions were taken:
The information was completely cleansed from the team's computer systems and a formal investigation was started. We promptly informed McLaren of the situation and immediately after the FIA.
Since then we have constantly and regularly kept McLaren and the FIA informed on all relevant findings.
Mr Mackereth was immediately suspended from his position. The original floppy discs were impounded and sent to our solicitors for return to McLaren.
Our formal investigation showed that early in his employment with Renault Mr Mackereth made some of our engineers aware of parts of this information in the form of a few reduced scale engineering drawings. These drawings covered four basic systems as used by McLaren and were: the internal layout of the fuel tank, the basic layout of the gear clusters, a tuned mass damper and a suspension damper.
Subsequent witness statements from the engineers involved have categorically stated that having been briefly shown these drawings, none of this information was used to influence design decisions relating to the Renault car. In the particular case of the tuned mass damper, these had already been deemed illegal by the FIA and therefore the drawing was of no value.
The suspension damper drawing hinted that the McLaren design might be similarly considered illegal and a subsequent clarification from the FIA confirmed this based upon our crude interpretation of the concept.
ING Renault F1 Team have co-operated fully with McLaren and the FIA in this matter to the extent that the team has invited McLaren's independent experts to come and assess the team's computer systems and inspect the cars and the design records, to demonstrate that this unfortunate incident has not in anyway influenced the design of the cars.
ING Renault F1 Team have acted with complete transparency towards McLaren and the FIA, being proactive in solving this matter and we are fully confident in the judgment of the World Council.
Sounds fishy. Who uses "old style" floppy disks this day and age??? Would they have enough storage capacity for those drawings?
Well well.
They aren't doing the same mistakes as RD did.
But I don't know if their stance would be the same if there wouldn't already have been the McLaren case with it's outcome.
I feel that a punishment should be handed out. How harsh that will be? Who knows.
Old style - as in 1.44MB, and they had detailed tech drawings on them. Perhaps these disks were formatted with the TARDIS file format...... :laugh: Renault loaded those drawings onto their systems?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilderness
And they took ages to fathom out why they were so slow.........?! ;)
I'd suspend Mackereth too for not being too technically savvy...
It seems that McLaren do! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wilderness
Maybe that's why he needed to ask for them to be loaded on his Renault directory, cause they didn't had any suitable drive!
For the systems described (fuel tank layout, damper systems) it is easily possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilderness
Very easy if it's 2D, and fairly easy if it was 3D, and even if it was an assembly of several 3D parts.
One simple part (simple shapes, without use of complicated math equation to describe curves and surfaces) designed with ProEngineer with shades, highlights and colors added would need a few tenths of KBs. A more complicated part would go up to 100 or 200 KBs.
So the answer is yes it was possible to have all that info on 3, 1.44 MB floppy disks.
That's very dissapointing. With the budgets these guys spend on design etc, and the technical minutae they go into, I would at least have expected a few Gigs of multilayered drawings. Oh well, it's not all true what you see on the big screen I guess..... ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Honestly, after seeing the mess these F1 engineers got themselves trying to do some data traffic, I strongly believe that they do not now to much about how to cheat an informatics system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilderness
To "take home" 3 x 1.44 MB of classified data there is really no need to copy it onto floppies.
Don't fool yourself, results of FEM or FD simulations or optimizations for simpler (from a design point of view) parts do need many gigabytes for storage.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
One question unanswered. Who authorized the up loading onto Renault's system? That person is not named in FB's response. Just who and how senior was this person? Ooops, that is really 3 questions.
The problem with that being the FIA cannot dictate what Bernie/FOM pays out, so its easy to assume that the combined fine plus resulting payout Mcleran lost would = 100, however there is nothing stopping Bernie from taking Ron into a back room and saying "you guys did I fine job, I think you still deserve the 2nd place prize money, there you go old chap"Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
This is by far the most idoitic thing I've read on here in days!!! Sue Ferrari for using the data the police uncovered? use it for what? stand up comedy? what could Ferrari have any use of that information? it may have been passed on to the FIA who then used it against McLeran BUT Fererri used it too? Maybe ALonso passed on a secret Mcleran recipe for brownies that Ferrari used at a formula 1 bake sale?Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
We now have conflicting reports on this, renault said, and in enough detail that if they are proven right, would suggest the possibility of the macs still using mass dampers and other funny gadgets also deemed illegal, all found on 3 floppies disks. And then we have another story claiming this is much worse the what the Macs had on Ferrari...Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
And if the evidence proves Renault acted correctly on this matter? As I suggested earlier, should this prove to be nothing more then McLeran attempting to regain some dignity after the steyney-gate then I hope FIA has a couple more books they can throw at them...Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
I guess those that wanted Ferrari punished for not controlling their employees now want McLaren punished, again, for not doing the same. So that would be another $100 million and goodbye 2008. ;)
I think a distinction between spying and theft needs to be made. Spying is OK. They all do it and nobody has a problem with it. Taking photos and doing various forms of analysis on other cars is OK. Taking actual data, in whatever medium, is not. That's theft, or the receipt of stolen goods, and that's what McLaren were found guilty of and what Renault are being investigated for.
Looks like McLaren just moved one spot further up the pit lane next year. ;)
The FIA is losing control over the situation
Give it a week and an allegation is going to come out that some other team used Renault info, it is going to be a domino effect that will stall the 2008 season. I can feel the storm gathering. F1 is becoming a farce and these legal cases and potential problems are doing nothing but diminishing the value of the sport.
From McClaren's end I can see their logic, as this precedent has been set up by the FIA. The guy Alonso who cost them $100million ( after the FIA had already handed out a verdict) is now going to the competitor that they themselves "cheated" on them. Ergo poetic justice would afford them the opportunity to hand it to Renault. For a trully ironic twist, they should have waited until Alonso signed on the dotted line and the team were 3 races into the season.
But seriously if I were the FIA I would do the following with hase
1. reduce McClaren fine to a nominal $1 million
2. hand out the same punishement to Renault
3. Reinstate the constructors points and let the current teams keep their winnigs, but maintain the #2 status for McClaren next year with all the benefits they are entitled to at that position.
4. from here on out ajudicate all team vs. team matters through an Arbitratior in order to ensure maximum impartiality as well as to stay out of making judgements. along with that, institute a policy whereby teams as part of the concord system CANNOT involve local or national judicial systems in a sporting matter. I am sure the italian government has better things to do than trying to ensure a Ferrari victory through their court system
5. Come up with a specific, transparent and a concise uniform code of conduct with specific penalities and associated values in place. No more subjective or biased decisions. $1million for each specific infraction.
6. Only refer a situation to arbitration, if it meets a stricter standard of "possession with actual confirmed and definitve use, resulting in exceeding performance and complete lack of distinction from competitors part" and/or "components/parts used that show clear to have been designed from other teams data/IP and violating teams own IP lacks independent evolution odd said component/part.
Simply posessing a dosier or files is not enough to hammer down a team.
7. Cease the retroactive punishement of teams as from the 2008 season.
8. Rules stated at the begining of the season cannot be ammended throughout the year to grandfather "changes designs or concepts" that as the rules clearly state are in violtion.
9. Each team gets 1 ( and only 1) member to join the rules and competition commitee that evaluates and verifies the legality of new components requested throughout the year. Team member may not disclose any technical information to their team and serve only to verify and assess the legality of the components rather than pass judgement to minimize their competitive disadvantege. 75% majority required to disapprove new components.
That's what I would implement if I were leading the FIA, no more backroom dealings, no more secret pacts just good sound business. If the NFL and FIFA can use arbitration, then why not F1
I agree in part but feel that the criteria should be set to "using actual data"Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
everyone copies,passes on information etc. Every business corporation in every industry does it. They reverse engineer, they posees other companies data etc. But itis only when coke tastes exactly like pepsi, when lays bbq chips taste like herr's bbq chips, when McD's comes ut with onion rings that are identical to Burger King's etc, that the other company sues for patent infrigment. It happens in the movie/tv business in clothing companes, everywhere. Simply possessing info is not enough, in my book, to hand down draconian penalties.
I was witing for this. look how all the mcLaren fans sticking up for their team, in total denial, hanging on shred of excuse available.But forget about applying the same rules of innocent until proven guilty. How hypocritical! This thread is revolting. What an unplesant spectacle!!! I always knew that everybody defending McLaren were doing it out of spite, and this is the prove. Way to go McLAren fans!!! Way to go..........Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
WOW@!!!! McLaren under scrutiny and Renault maeby in troulble too??? I am sure Ferrari is enjoyng all this :) :) :) :)
Interesting point, although if the account is true, their 'stance' on the situation had nothing to do with the McLaren case because it had all been 'resolved' before we knew anything about it. And the statement is just as open to other interpretations as anything else we've seen recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Renault obviously is putting the most positive spin on it. But here is another view, from grandprix.com ..
"Given what Renault has admitted it is fairly clear that the team is in at least as bad a situation as was McLaren - something which Flavio Briatore denied when the first rumours emerged about the problem.
Some would argue that this is much worse as Renault is admitting that the information was inside its factory and in its computer network - something which McLaren denied being the case with the documents that Mike Coughlan received from Ferrari and of which not trace has been found despite strenuous efforts by the FIA.
The argument that not much information was involved is irrelevant as the FIA rules do not quantify how much espionage is acceptable. A dozen disks are as bad as 780 pages of paperwork.
The fact that there are witness statements from a number of Renault engineers (we hear the number is 15) admitting that they have seen the data suggests that this is much more of a problem than was the case against McLaren."
(http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19855.html)
Another site said the data was only removed a year after the engineer started at Renault, and that some of the engineers who saw it and signed the witness statements/admissions were pretty senior. Also Flav has been quoted saying that McLaren should automatically have been thrown out of both championships, for spying.
So far Max has kept quiet, we'll have to see which way he spins it. He's in a tight spot.
Anyone can give them money, but the fine was $100m.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
Ferrari produced it as evidence. As in the UK, you can't just get someone's phone records for private use. Not legally, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
Any design is legal at the design stage. Renault were just saying that they couldn't have benefitted from those designs.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
If that's proved, it's proved, but at this point in time, it doesn't look likely. Renault look in trouble. And Max.Quote:
Originally Posted by PSfan
I don't think Renault has too much to worry about. McLaren races for a living. Renault sells street cars for a living. Renault has been in and out of F1. Back in 2005 they were making noises like they wouldn't be in F1 for 2007. If Renault is found to be in violation of one or more sporting regulations the FIA will not hammer them like they did McLaren because Renault will tell Max to stuff it and leave F1. Oddly enough, the results of the FIA's inspection of McLaren's 2008 car will not be released until the Renault matter is settled. If Renault is found to be in violation and suffers a minor penalty, McLaren will be told to smile and agree it's fair or there could be some problem areas with the 2008 car. If everybody plays nice, McLaren's 2008 car will be certified as 100% McLaren and the 2008 season will be saved.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if the team owners have already been quietly discussing a new, breakaway series again. Especially since there is no new agreement in place.
coming from a ''biased'' Mclaren fan I really think this is BS.. Renault said they even told the FIA and Mclaren as soon as they go it so I don't think they should be guilty... this whole spy thing is a joke.. it's been going on for ages and just now all of a sudden Formula 1 teams are spying on eachother.. yaah right!
If you are ever in a court of law, try lying and see how "trivial" the court thinks it is!Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
Did you forget that F1 is a TEAM SPORT????? And businesses prevent espionage every day.Quote:
Originally Posted by rohanweb
Whether it is 1 employee or 100 employees involved, theft and espionage is wrong and needs to be punished. If you want to accept that as OK, then what is next? Poisoning another team's drivers?
Aren't they both forms of confidential information???Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
It's just been raised to a higher (or deeper) level and the media has more access to the information on the cases. The FIA must do something to try and save face when these things become public.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikk
(Of course, there are still those who claim the whole issue is Ferrari's fault! Even Damon Hill - who is hardly unbiased - is still linking Ferrari to the problem with spying "tarnishing" the sport. He still doesn't understand the definition of legality regarding Ferrari's floor in Melbourne!) http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=33371
If all of the teams are caught then that will encourage all of the teams not to cheat. Simple enough really.....Quote:
Originally Posted by raikk
When one considers the content of the information, appearently mass dampers are involved, perhaps this secret form of mass damper is illegal and threfore of little or no use. Even more interesting is the FIA statement rebutuall to Hill that discussed the floor device, and NOTES THAT A DEVICE SIMILAR IN EFFECT WAS BEING ALSO BEING USED BY MAC
Well it wasn't a court of law. But in any case you wouldn't throw the team out of the WMC and fine them $100m for that lying would you? It needs to be proportionate. Otherwise, how would you punish the FIA for saying that the first WMSC decsision was unanimous, when the Italian delegate was already complaining about it? A lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
Everything was built up as though McLaren was the only team ever to have used another team's data. Now it becoming (even) clearer that they are not, as Bernie's 'crisis meeting' with the other teams demonstrates. It's normal in F1 to use whatever you can get.
They are not identical either, are they? It was an analogy to avoid discussing the real issue. Do I condone theft etc etc - of course I don't, that was not the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
Hill is the one who understands the regs. Read them, there is no way a partially sprung floor met 3.15. 3.17 had to be met as well as, not instead of, 3.15 (see 2.4). The FIA added 3.17.6 to get Ferrari off the hook after Melbourne.Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcot
The fact is that they were lying about espionage! That's a much bigger problem than telling a simple lie. You can't separate the two parts - they had the information - they lied about having the information - they lied about how much information they had. It's far more serious than lying by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by passmeatissue
I probably wouldn't fine McLaren (or Renault if found to be guilty.) I would suggest that the team earns no WCC or WDC points for that season with a probationary period for the next season based on further evidence of espionage. The loss of championship points and revenue would be a fine in itself.