IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.
As far as the International series for CC, great idea.
IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.
As far as the International series for CC, great idea.
Regardless of how much they spend directly, 7-11 is owned by a Japanese conglomerate and there are obvious reasons there would be ties to Honda. Over 32,000 stores worldwide is nothing to sneeze at. Wouldn't that be better spent on an INTERNATIONAL SERIES with so many stores overseas? Apparently not. How many Sonny's Barbecue( no disrespect to Sonnys- thanks for the involvement) stores are there? I suspect the 7-11 money spent in the IRL and on their related promotional activities, which there were many, is chump change to them. I know my 7-11 still has Indy car paraphernalia all over it and the season is now long over and the closest race is 190 miles from here. The amount they spent on styrofoam cooler sales in the stores is probably three times what Sonny's spent on their CCWS sponsorship. At least their sponsors do activate their deals on a large scale aimed at luring fans to the IRL. Where is that commitment ot champcar by even the glorious CDW sponsorship. No CCWS specific commercials and a full page ad when JW won a race and now poof, gone. Why is that??Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Latest News from CCWS:Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Greenlight Collectibles to supply Diecast Replicas.
Latest News from A1GP:
Ferrari to supply engines and chassis.
:rolleyes:
Alexamateo - at last someone as put this argument into prespective. even though it was brief - this is the post of the week (maybe the year!!) .Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexamateo
Let the facts speak for them selves - well done, great post!!!
A post with this little knowledge should not be allowed to be viewed by intelligent people. David Clare has been given the amunition from Ferrari to bury any idea of CCWs performing or getting sponsors in Europe or any region within the FIA arena...look to A1GP to move out of the winter only schedule and in sync with F-1 (where David Clare worked) eliminating the last great hope of CCWS abroad.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
The fallacy that they run in only in the winter is just that, a fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
They run exactly three of their 10 races in the Northern hemisphere winter which is of course summer in the venues where they run. Their season runs from September through May, currently an overlap of three months (4 if Phoenix had made it to the green flag) of the 2007 CCWS season in the fall and 2 months in the spring, 3 if the CCWS returns to a March start date as I suspect it may to keep Las Vegas. If you consider that Champcar essentially disappears from the US market for months on end three separate times, their schedule is essentially little different to a fan looking at the very real prospect of no more than 7 US races over a span of 7 months. Not exactly a resounding commitment to the home territory. They are courting the same international sponsors as Champcar is apparently looking at now.
Add to that A1GP has actually run 2 races in China and have two on the current schedule, one on the very track CCWS has been trying to run unsuccessfully. One race in Australia, Champcar's most successful market, with a V8 super car series openly and justly lobbying for a greater piece of the Surfers pie, which I suspect they will be granted. One race in the Netherlands with a strong consistant series presence, in the same basic time frame as CCWS does. A race in Mexico City on the very same track as CCWS has been with token Mexican fan presence and a dwindling crowd. Then they also have a modestly successful street race on a track that was allegedly and unsuccessfully targeted by CCWS in South Africa, and a race at Brands Hatch that was basically a total flop when run by Champcars.
They are a spec series with a revolving driver lineup yes, but they will now be racing Ferraris, and not just any ferrari, but what is essentially going to be a two year old F1 design with a V8 engine expected to produce in the vicinity of 700 hp. A serious threat to Champcar performance and clearly higher than GP2.
Exactly what is Champcar going to be offering that is better or significantly different? An unbranded poorly promoted spec series with no manufacturer support or panache, with a revolving lineup of unknown international drivers, competing for a "world cup", skipping all over the world, with a marginal TV package, little evidence of a true home market and no evidence of sustainable support from outside of the series itself.
They are already a potential threat to champcar in many ways internationally now and should be seen as a future threat to Champcar if they are going to be pursuing so many of the same markets that A1Gp is already in.
Champcar better step up their game in a MAJOR way in very short order as the new kid on the block does not appear to be going away any faster than their 12 year old cross town rival.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogelio
I never said it explained ALL the woes. But team and series financing is the biggest of all those woes. Yes, the series was still strong for a couple of years, as existing contracts ran out. But then the advertisers, (remember THEY are the ones who fund this entire effort) ran for the exits with one destination in mind. One destination and one race. No amount of card playing ever could or ever will counter Madison Avenues fascination with the 500. For a long time I hoped against hope that this was not true, but sadly the past five years have proved my hopes false.
If this were not true, please explain how we see recognizable company names on sidepods in IOWA??? The advertisers are not there to advertise in Iowa, trust me.
Gary
Absolutely it does. It speaks to the differences in priorities between the two series. Someone knows what matters and will make a long term difference, and one is worried about a couple hundred diecast car sales. A deal which by the way took what, over a year and a half to finally close.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark123
And now that they have The Ferrari name tied to the series, how long before A1Gp locks up a deal to race on the new racetrack in Dubai, one that champcar is allegedly trying to land and one that has the Ferrari brand intertwined into it at so many levels.
Champcar is being beaten to the punch in almost every place they try to go internationally and domestically. Sponsors, television, manufacturer involvement, international markets. I hear there is a chance they are going to try to rescue those abandoned moon buggies and be the first to race on the Moon. :rolleyes:
That's because the stench eminating from that place lately is enough to even drive a buzzard away. Why keep it a secret who you saw there? If CCWS is in such a strong position as to lure in a well known IRL owner, surely there is no threat to that owner staying in the IRL rather than jumping to CCWS? Or could it be that owner is in fact a vulture circling its carrion.Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrrariF1
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
ALMS has the significant involvement and manufacturer support for teams and races to pay the bills. The ALMS also shows clear evidence of knowing what they are and reacting to challenges with positive results and exposure. Audi, Honda, Porsche, Chevrolet, Aston Martin and possibly Pugeot, a manufacturer that doesn't even sell cars in the US. They also spend wisely on their television package rather than paying an arm and a leg to show a race broadcast rarely better than something from the local college access channel.
A deal with Eurosport? Is that the same one I hear constant complaints of schedule changes, truncated or cacelled race coverage and a follow the bouncing schedule change practice? Where's that full season Mexican TV package and The Australian season long package. I hear the loyal Canadian fans were just thrilled with their TV package this year. Going to europe is going to make that better how? How does a team from Indiana benefit from that again? Oh yeah, with sposor that disappears and a driver that is kicked to the curb as soon as that race in his home country has passed.
Sounds like a wonderful plan. Remind me why should I watch that again? What happens when Paul Track realizes that he just isn't that fast any longer and Graham goes to race else where, which he certainly will be.
Remind me what channel I can't see the next two CCWS races on?
Yes, I will agree with you that it does not explain all of the series woes. CART and Champ Car's inability to create a "sound product" is what has drove the sponsors away. Yes, the I-500 is important, but had CC played their cards right they would not be in the situation they are in.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Even with the I-500, the IRL is floundering as a series. Recognizable names sit on the sidepods in IOWA because, sadly but truthfully, the series is better off than CC. Yes, the sponsors realize the importance of the big race and in the IRL, the sponsors find 'stability.' Names like Penske, Gnassi, Foyt, and Andretti surely help when attracting sponsorship.
Do the sponsors really care about the split? No, they want their product name on something that sells (NASCAR). Our series is being run by inept and imcompetent Amigos. The I-500 matters because CART/CC has failed to find an alternative to the race.
He probably gets it from FerrrariF1, who picks up the papers, while Champ Car is out of town, in Australia.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Jeff
No surprise there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Dominate does not mean completely own, and NASCAR is bloody expensive to run in now, as you should know by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
But short of moving to Europe completely, what will the European sponsors gain? Not much. You continually bring up this point, and I continually remind you that most sponsors on CC's level really don't care about international exposure.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
No, I think CC should drop the World bit for now. They do not have the resources or support to go globe-hopping, especially if sponsors aren't paying for it. It's a huge waste of time and money for the teams other than the Amigos.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
That gonna happen? I don't bet on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
They will be bankrupt long before then because the current crop of CC teams cannot expect to keep globe-hopping. In CC's current shape, it makes zero financial sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
And this is different form NASCAR in America how exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
America supports its home teams too. CC just doesn't give them jack all to root for. You should know that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
And this is different from CC in what way????? CC is guilty of everything you mention above, including scheduling races in winter (before they cancelled that race!).Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
IMO,They are in Iowa because of ethanol and the track.Ethanol wants them in corn country and the track will pay them. If what you said were true about the 500, there wouldn't be a need for TG to pony up to fill the field and there would be more than 18 cars in the series. The ratings have been falling for 10 years. I'm sure Madison ave. has noticed that too. I highly doubt TG will have the leverage to secure another lucrative tv deal ,especially if his subsidy program doesn't pan out.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
America only supports the home team when they win and then only if they dominate the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentJackson
You like to blame everything on Champ Car but Champ Car has brought back racing at Road America and Portland and now Laguna. Road America had a pitiful attendance and Portland will probably not make the 2008 schedule because of poor attendance. I'm sure you will make it Champ Cars fault for poor attendance at American venues BUT with Champ Car, the foreign venues do attract great fans to the venues in high numbers.
Now why is it that Champ Car with the same ingredients have better attendance in foreign lands than in America hmmmmm?
America is NahSCAR land and Americans like their racing with big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round. They want to sit back in their seats for 5 hours anticipating the next big crash.
The manufacturers pay the bills and they still need an audience to justify it. So you're think a tv pkg between SPEED and CBS is better than CC's on one network? No way. Have you seen the ALMS races on CBS? they are pretaped and cut to fit a time slot. They're awful. CC just got their tv pkg. They haven't had one full year with their new partner yet. Last year some races were still on other networks. They also have atlantics on ABC/ESPN.Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
The truth is F1 ,ALMS, GA, IRL, CC and other series all have bad ratings. This is not unique to CC at all. Even Nascar is on 2 year low.
It is a good one and an asset for CC.Quote:
A deal with Eurosport?
IMO
DC is trying to bury CC? I thought he was trying to stop the money bleeding from that series. Exactly what ammunition does Ferrari give? They are making money from a deal. This is just a lot of wishful thinking.IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
The problem is what happens if/when honda leaves for nascar?Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
You've never had the pleasure of watching, or at least trying to watch a race on Eurosport, have you? Delays, cutting to races half-way through, cutting if races over-run. You name the things they could do to annoy the fans and they do it - they've even kept with live tennis in preference to CCWS. I think most of the races were on Europsort 2 this year as well. I say I think as I don't have satellite or cable tv and stumped up the money for Race Director. The only good thing about the (international and therefore) Eurosport feed is the commentators - Jeremy Shaw and James Hinchcliffe are great - just a shame those ridiculous banners obscure a lot of the track when in-car.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Eurosport do the bare minimum to have CC on their network. They spend a lot more time advertising the WTCC, in much the same way as Sky TV (UK satellite) plug A1GP and (to a lesser extent) the IRL.
Where is the evidence that Honda is going to the IRL? Marc C's infamous spy photo?? What benefit is there to Honda joining NASCAR? Honda does not believe in V8 power in it's on road products, their trucks are not very popular in their curent configuration, and they don't need NASCAR to sell Accords. They shoot for a totally different demographic than Toyota and have a totally different image than Toyota IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Toyota is trying to prove to Americans that it is an American company. Toyota is also historically very insecure for being such a powerful company. Toyota is in racing strictly for marketing. Honda historically has done it for the engineering exercise. Granted the IRL doesn't exactly fit that bill at this time, but they get their mileage out of the 500 none the less. I don't see that insecurity from Honda. They build cars in this country because it makes financial sense.
The rumoured deal for series sponsorship by Budweiser and the new revenue sharing plan will go a long way to that end, but the discussion is actually about Champcar, not the IRL.
Budweiser? HA!Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelred5
Have you ever, in your life, watched one single race on Eurosport? That is a simple question and demands only a yes or no answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
If not, how can you say that in the face of folks like Andrewmcm who DOES watch the races on that network?
....or Mexican TV or Australian TV........assets? Baloney.
I should point out that although I bought Race Director this year, I watched CC for the last 2 seasons on Eurosport, and I was not impressed at all. Hence my remarks in that first post are based in fact and not on supposition.
Just to clear it up in case of pedantry...! ;)
Andrew, I've gotta tell you....that made me laugh harder than just about anything I've read here in a LONG time!Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmcm
:up: :up: :up:
It seems no one wants Champcar around, in some cases not even the fans, its like let it just die, so we can be heal blah blah .We all know how screw up things seem too be with cancel races, driver getting the boot for market reason, driver not been pay, teams dropout, sponser leaving, its seem each week there is some bad news coming from this forum, or others and at the sametime no one from the top seem too say anything, its kinda like they don't see it, but anyway I will wait until next season I have been doing it since 04 when the the three took over, wait and see.
Tell that to Allmendinger. CCWS got lots more media attention when AJ started winning. Even when he didn't win at Edmonton and San Jose the media was quite quick to say that he would be back to win again.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Let's look at this a little closely, shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Zolder's attendance numbers were no better than Road America or Mont-Tremblant, so toss that one. The Netherlands has very little top-level motorsport, and their brightest racing star was in the field and in championship contention. A1 had the same thing when Verstappen proved a threat to win at Zandvoort after dominating at Durban the year before. Surfers Paradise it seems is looked at as being a V8 race first CC second, and the V8s are as popular in Australia as NASCAR is in the US. What else is there, Mike? Mexico City? Sinking fast, has been since the Mexicans in both drivers and sponsors went away.
Is it CC's fault that RA and M-T only got 25-30K? No. The promoter is responsible for his attendance. But he cannot promote easily if CCWS' product sucks. That isn't rocket science.
Because the field is full of them, and even then its hardly proven that the foreign races are better than North American ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Nice. You've just proven to me you are an elitist, and those people tick me off. What happened to CART, anyways? They weren't as you put it "big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round". They got famous because the bast drivers in America were there. Star power is what draws fans, and that can be either in machinery or drivers. ALMS and to a lesser extent Grand-Am works off the machinery aspect and quite successfully. CC is a spec series, which means the path to success goes through the drivers - who are roated around frequently for the next sucker with a bank account. Combine that with an arrogant attitude, jerkoff fans, a bad reputation as a business and virtually no promotion whatsoever and you go from CART in 2001 to where we are now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike15
Champ Car is responsible for its own success, or lack thereof. That hasn't sunk in yet to you, sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists. Think about this, Mike. Is CC better than it was four years ago? No, it isn't. And don't give me the victim BS either, because if you think F1 or NASCAR give a rats behind about Champ Car you are royally, badly delusional.
It was time four years ago for the amigos to get it together and begin fixing the mistakes made by the past series operators. They haven't done that. They've let problems that already existed get much worse, and that is the reason CC is in the shape it is in.
Mike, you seem to me like a reasonable, intelligent person. So, why in the heck are you stumping for the morons at CC HQ instead of standing up and barking like most of us here for them to get off their arses and fix this series? That goes to sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists too.
Why are we having to debate the problems? Any idiot can see them.
Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that Brent answered the bell for CC.
Couldn't agree more, Brent.
Well we can't be serious all the time can we - everyone likes a laugh now and again! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Amen to that and to Brent for his concise responseQuote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
Well said, Brent.
Agreed. Good job, Brent.
Secured successful events, tv pkg, new car, secure engine manufacturer, Pi, revamped Atlantics with new car. All things the other series wants. Shoring up the schedule can be done, every series goes through it. When CC has 12 years under their present ownership,then we can compare. The foundation is there.
Brent isn't saying anything new, its the same rant we've heard for years on the forums. Nothing is good enough and throw money at it an make it go away. It used to be about how bad street racing is,now its the European races. Usually you can can count on whatever is being said, the opposite is what will work. True to form ,thanks.
BTW I"ll take all the $5 bets. How do we get paid?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cart750hp
Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvtjoker
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
You guys need to get a room.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrentJackson
As if those are the ONLY two options? Is this a case of "you're either with us or you're against us"? I agree it is STUPID to be stumping for the folks who are pulling the strings at CC, but I think it is equally as stupid to think that all the pontification, pronouncements and hand wringing in a forum like this are going to do a damn thing to change the goings on at CC. Further, I think it is pathetic that folks think that any one who doesn't join either of those two camps doesn't give a damn about what is happening.
Gary
Sanguin, let's go through your post:
"Secured successful events" -- name them.
"TV pkg" -- Why would the IRL want to pay for TV time when it gets paid for it?
"New car" -- please show me where the IRL wants the DP-01.
"Secure engine manufacturer" -- Layoffs continue at Cosworth, where Bernard Ferguson, a key 23-year engineer, just left. Cosworth has no F1 deal. All Cosworth has is a CC deal.
"Pi" -- Why would the IRL want to own Pi?
"Revamped Atlantics with new car" -- The IPS series experienced a big growth in field this year, more than 20 cars per race. Why does the IRL want Atlantics?
"All things the other series wants?
Baloney.
And by the way, good post, Brent.
No, they don't. That is just another untruth that you hope, by repeating it enough, will become accepted.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Give us ONE example where a professional series - ANY professional series - was in the position CCWS is in right now, in mid October, with no more than 2 or 3 races/venues having announced firm dates for the 2008 season which begins in just a few months.
Tell us, sanguin, how do you sell sponsorships under those conditions?
How do you get the best possible TV? Are you willing to sit there and tell us that ABC/ESPN, even as a time buy, will sit there forever and hold time slots for races that are still uncertain as spring programming is being set? Mark my word...the result of all this, if there IS a 2008 season for CCWS, will be that you will see a far greater number of events on ESPN Classic next year.
Now we read that Petit - the owner who is closing up shop - is the only one of the series owners who will even be present in Australia at this "marquis" event.
You poo poo the lack of a schedule as being insignificant, something easily overcome. It's not. It's hard.
The problem is that over the past year, especially, the CCWS ownership has not been able to overcome even the truly "easy things." What makes you think they can do the hard ones?
I read it all the time. You keep saying they don't want anything from CC, but that's not what being posted.Seems they want a lot, venues, Atlantics,teams,they certainly need a new car. Cosworth has other business besides CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
http://www.eemsonline.co.uk/press_releases/02-09-07Quote:
Cosworth - which is owned by Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven, co owners of the Champ Car World Series - is dealing with more road engines and is diversifying into aerospace, medical equipment design and confidential automotive consultancy work. It has recently gained prestigious AS/EN9100 accreditation to manufacture products for the aerospace sector.
I've got Satellite, and can safely say that Eurosports coverage of CCWS is, being charitable, half-assed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrewmcm
I try to watch it, but I'll give you a few examples. Eurosport had the live Assen CC race coverage timetabled for 1pm GMT on the schedule.
I programmed the reminder on the satellite box, and come 1pm GMT got the reminder flash up that their coverage was about to start.
I pressed the 'select' button, and discovered that the race was live....only it was already on lap 35.
That is for the biggest European race in the ChampCar schedule....on the European channel!
Another time....can't remember the race but it was on late over here (about 10pm GMT)....I switched on at the correct time, to discover that because the WTCC coverage had over-run, they went to the live coverage of the CC race half-way through.
Eurosport is the main backer of the WTCC and therefore really pushes its prominence. Unsurprisingly, because they own the rights to the broadcasts, the coverage is very good, even having the qualifying sessions for most races broadcast live. They even show the Formula Masters support races live on occasions.
Their MotoGP coverage is exceptional, with every session live and then repeated several times...including the practice sessions.
Their Superbike coverage is very good too.
ChampCar races are shown live on Eurosport, but are pitiful in comparison.
I generally end up watching the repeat broadcast on MotorsTV, as its shown later in the week, but even they are not a patch on MotorsTV's coverage of the DTM, which has live qualifying and live race broadcasts for every round.
SkySports cover the IRL and A1GP. This is a subscription channel, but the quality of the coverage is way better than the ChampCar coverage provided by Eurosport. For the record, Eurosport is not free, it is part of the basic satellite package (cost approx $30 a month).
The problem for ChampCar is that in comparison to the other series on Eurosport and the multitude of race series shown on Motors TV (live ALMS, live DTM, live LMS, live V8 SuperCars, all repeated throughout the following week) the image of the series due to the poor coverage and second-class standing it has in the schedules makes it only of interest to the truly devoted...and that's just not good enough for a series with aspirations.