FIA offical checking McLaren equality*Merged*

Alonso might be characterized as being paranoid by some , but , just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you .

Just like DC did , Fernando sees the excitement in the pits when Lewis gets the pole .
I think Alonso , feeling mis-treated himself , just plain got tired of hearing Ron exclaim equality between drivers as his mantra .

He had seen favouritism in Ron's team , and supposed it would continue .
It did , but not in his favour , and then seeing his role as the making of the star , not being one , he decided not to play .

The irony in it from that point of view is that Alonso's move to "blackmail"(Ron's description , I believe) was in response to his feeling the he wasn't treated fairly .
What Fernando used for the "blackmail" was illegal activity within the team , which is what Ron was denying already .
That's hardly the moral high ground on which to accuse someone of "blackmail" .

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Originally Posted by fandango

I agree with that. However, I think that equality sometimes needs pro-active bias to be really equal. Back in the days of Hakkinen and Coulthard at McLaren, there was that famous time when DC moved over to let Hakkinen win in Australia. ....

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That was not done under team orders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Is that a clue Ioan?

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No, just a typo.

Actually I don't have a negative opinion regarding this matter.
As my British friends like to declare(not necessarily in this case)
I think "it's a tempest in a teacup"
and will only serve to give the Speed TV commentators
something to talk about during the pre-race
(as if there isn't enough subject matter for them to espouse)
However, for those of you that have objections to this scrutineering episode.
Add one more cheese that is laying down with Ron in Punkdom,
removing his briefs, while begging “Thank you sir may I have another?


"Frankfurt- Mercedes motorsport director Norbert Haug on
Friday said that he would welcome a FIA special scrutineer in their
box during the Brazilian Grand Prix to make sure of parity between
McLaren-Mercedes'.
The head of the Spanish motorsport federation Carlos Gracia had
earlier called on the sports' governing body FIA to place a
scrutineer in the McLaren box to make sure that Fernando Alonso would
not be treated unfairly by the team.

Haug told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa that the team would fully
co-operate with any scrutineer."

http://rawstory.com/news/dpa/Haug_wo..._10122007.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Alonso might be characterized as being paranoid by some , but , just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you .

Just like DC did , Fernando sees the excitement in the pits when Lewis gets the pole .
I think Alonso , feeling mis-treated himself , just plain got tired of hearing Ron exclaim equality between drivers as his mantra .

He had seen favouritism in Ron's team , and supposed it would continue .
It did , but not in his favour , and then seeing his role as the making of the star , not being one , he decided not to play .

The irony in it from that point of view is that Alonso's move to "blackmail"(Ron's description , I believe) was in response to his feeling the he wasn't treated fairly .
What Fernando used for the "blackmail" was illegal activity within the team , which is what Ron was denying already .
That's hardly the moral high ground on which to accuse someone of "blackmail" .

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Ron's alleged high moral standards have no other ground than his own overconfidence and his fans bias.
There is not one team out there that equally threated their drivers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schmenke

That was not done under team orders.

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No, they just asked him nicely ;) What difference does it make? When one driver is favoured (which I have no problem with) they can't say they treat them equally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Alonso might be characterized as being paranoid by some , but , just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you .

Just like DC did , Fernando sees the excitement in the pits when Lewis gets the pole .
I think Alonso , feeling mis-treated himself , just plain got tired of hearing Ron exclaim equality between drivers as his mantra .

He had seen favouritism in Ron's team , and supposed it would continue .
It did , but not in his favour , and then seeing his role as the making of the star , not being one , he decided not to play .

The irony in it from that point of view is that Alonso's move to "blackmail"(Ron's description , I believe) was in response to his feeling the he wasn't treated fairly .
What Fernando used for the "blackmail" was illegal activity within the team , which is what Ron was denying already .
That's hardly the moral high ground on which to accuse someone of "blackmail" .

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:rolleyes: Bagwan...

as you should know... according to the information given out in the press...

When Alonso made the attempt to BLACKMAIL Dennis,

RD asked another McLaren team member (Whitmarsh sp. I think)...

to come in... and then had Alonso repeat the charge.

Ron then went directly to Mosley and advised him of Alonso's charges!!!

Neither Alonso nor Molsey have denied Ron Dennis's account, or the press reports, about this...

so your inference about the moral high ground... is preposterous !!!

Dennis as well as any other CEO of a company with 13000 plus employees...

certainly can not be expected to be privy to e-mails which are secretly exchanged from one employee to another.

No one has presented any evidience showing that McLaren... as a company, or that RD knew about these e-mails before Alonso told Dennis... who then went directly to Molsey to report the alligations.


:s mokin:

Is that the same Whitmarsh to whom Coughlan said he showed the 780 pages of documents ?

Some high moral ground he has there .

What a load of rubbish.

F1 has no credibility left :down:

Boo! I was hoping to see Fred and Lewy kicking sand in eachother's face while Kimi waves and drives to V.

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

WeEll like I said, when you thought that no one could up with any weirder fatansies, I give you the FIA--except this is not fantansy, it is reality. :eek:

Just what are these guys going to catch??? Even if the most flagarant things occur to one car ot the other, it can happen so that it will, never, ever be obvious to some so called official FIA official
:rolleyes:



However, fear not, after being so highly inspired by the FIA and feeling challenged somehow to top that......and after much thought and other stuff.....I have it.....here it is:

there is lottery drawing of all tickets issued to fans to gain admittance...the lucky winner must then produce a coin, any coin.

Then on the grid, right before qualification starts, he tosses the coin atleast 20 feet in the air (carefully observed by special scrutinneer to ensure the good of the sport) where it lands on the grid--depending on the result of the coin toss, tails they switch cars and heads they do not switch cars...then each is stuck with that car for the Q and for the race!!!

or perhaps after Q, there is another toss to see if the cars change again...

Now what to do about those little cheaters in pit crews...say Spkyer does one and super-agri does the other, again depending on a coin toss deciding where each car goes right before each pit stop....think of the drama, benie boy would love it.... think of all the people tuning in on the boob tube just to see the drama of the flip or perhaps to see if anyone could really be that stupid ......

The obvious answer....... :bounce: :bandit: :roll:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trumperZ06

Dennis... who then went directly to Molsey to report the alligations.


:s mokin:

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The version I heard was that Dennis went directly to Mosley to report the alligators Fred released in his office Loo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tazio

The version I heard was that Dennis went directly to Mosley to report the alligators Fred released in his office Loo

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:D Naw... the straight story is...

;) Dennis would have liked to put Fredies Gators into Mosley's office Loo !!!

;) Sorry... Dbl post.

This is max's way of further disabling McLaren to give FIArrari a better chance at winning the drivers championship...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trumperZ06

:D Naw... the straight story is...

;) Dennis would have liked to put Fredies Gators into Mosley's office Loo !!!

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CHOMP!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tazio

CHOMP!!

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:D Low hanging Fruit ??? :beer: ;)

Has anybody said what penalty, if any, will be imposed if it is believed that the team are favouring Hamilton? Can any penalty be imposed? After all it has always been the case that some teams have had a number one driver and have never been penalised for this. Also, at what point do you say a driver is being favoured? - after all someone has to get the first pit stop, and someone the second, etc etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts

Has anybody said what penalty, if any, will be imposed if it is believed that the team are favouring Hamilton? Can any penalty be imposed? After all it has always been the case that some teams have had a number one driver and have never been penalised for this. Also, at what point do you say a driver is being favoured? - after all someone has to get the first pit stop, and someone the second, etc etc.

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That's a very good question. It will also interesting to see how they will distinguish a mistake from sabotage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts

Has anybody said what penalty, if any, will be imposed if it is believed that the team are favouring Hamilton? Can any penalty be imposed? After all it has always been the case that some teams have had a number one driver and have never been penalised for this. Also, at what point do you say a driver is being favoured? - after all someone has to get the first pit stop, and someone the second, etc etc.

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You refer to team orders rule---something I have never understood as being logically enforced by FIA, (as with a million other things that are FIA, common logic has nothing to do with nothing)

The rule seems to be that team orders affecting outcome of race are okay, unless they produce a public display that makes it seem that the orders are affecting the outcome of a race or one of the drivers makes a big public fuss, making it bad for the sport

In other words, it is okay to quietly arrange pit stops, etc., so that they affect the race outcome or permit a teamamate to get ahead, but it is NOT OKAY to have the paddle man hold a car for too long while the other driver sits behind and then later fusses--even in qualifying, after the other driver broke team orders as to who was to do what---I guess that is not quiet enough. It is not okay to have one driver sit in pit stall to keep other driver out, if the other driver fusses loudly enough.......

It is NOT okay to have a teamate pass another teamate on the last corner per team orders where everyone can see it....but earlier in the race, if done without being too public, it is okay and it is okay to tell a team mate to back off another team mate (or so it seems) again as long as there is no big public fuss...

Please do not respond that such a rule makes no sense, is subjective and so forth, but that seems to be the "real rules" behind the team order rule..... :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markabilly

You refer to team orders rule---something I have never understood as being logically enforced by FIA, (as with a million other things that are FIA, common logic has nothing to do with nothing)

The rule seems to be that team orders affecting outcome of race are okay, unless they produce a public display that makes it seem that the orders are affecting the outcome of a race or one of the drivers makes a big public fuss, making it bad for the sport

In other words, it is okay to quietly arrange pit stops, etc., so that they affect the race outcome or permit a teamamate to get ahead,

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Don't be surprised if there is a very broad interpretation of this rule in Brazil
Personally I think it will cause a tremendous amount of controversy and a really convoluted conclusion if they don’t narrow it down to one team driver taking out another team’s driver. Or in Fred's case taking out his own driver! If Massa's pit stop is synchronized to get him out in front of Hamy and really only drive fast enough to keep him behind look for a black flag, or more likely an immediate drive through penalty with the threat of a black flag for non compliance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Don't be surprised if there is a very broad interpretation of this rule in Brazil
Personally I think it will cause a tremendous amount of controversy and a really convoluted conclusion if they don’t narrow it down to one team driver taking out another team’s driver. Or in Fred's case taking out his own driver! If Massa's pit stop is synchronized to get him out in front of Hamy and really only drive fast enough to keep him behind look for a black flag, or more likely an immediate drive through penalty with the threat of a black flag for non compliance

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No doubt if the opportunity presents itself......the FIA will maximize the opportunity to do something :rolleyes:

:beer: Guess i should have said "something real stupid", and given the "official whatever is he gonna do scrutineer"....they are off to an excellent start for this race....

And for all you anti-Hamilton or pro FA fans, what makes you think that the real purpose to to see that FA is treated fairly.....or just to make it appear that way........


But not to worry, I understand that he will also be in charge of serving refreshments.....choices of grape, cherry, pink or other colors, with just a touch of wood alcohol, of...................... well you know :beer:

"Never fear, Ham, Scrutineer is here"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markabilly

:beer: Guess i should have said "something real stupid", and given the "official whatever is he gonna do scrutineer"....they are off to an excellent start for this race....

And for all you anti-Hamilton or pro FA fans, what makes you think that the real purpose to to see that FA is treated fairly.....or just to make it appear that way........


But not to worry, I understand that he will also be in charge of serving refreshments.....choices of grape, cherry, pink or other colors, with just a touch of wood alcohol, of...................... well you know :beer:

"Never fear, Ham, Scrutineer is here"

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As we all know the one thing that sets the Grand Prix of Brazil apart from all other GP's are the Brazilian Pit Babes! T__'s, head, and shoulders above the rest! Now they are something that could easily coerce me to sip the Kool-Aid. And given a little quality time with one, or two before hand I would die a happy man.
Not only that but I truly would be an impartial screwtineer

As I posted on the other thread:"Can you imagine the FIA going to Ferrari, while Michael Schumacher was at the helm, and insisting that his No.2 Rubens Barrichello or Eddie Irvine, was accorded the same privileges and that both men had to race on an equal footing?"

Wow! I leave for a few days vacation with the family and I come back to this weird mess! A couple of questions have come to mind:

1. Who is this FIA official and does he know every little detail about setting up a McLaren including engine mapping, programming traction control, chassis set-up, etc. Why don't they send Nigel Stepney? FA and LH don't have exactly the same set-up since their driving styles vary. Will LH be forced to use FA's exact setup?

2. If the scenario arises where FA takes LH out at the first corner, will this official say that it was a mechanical failure on FA's car caused by the team?

3. Aren't team orders much less messy than all this stuff? Yeah, there might have been a bit of a rumble when MH was favored over DC, or MS over RB and EI, or even EI being gifted a win by Mika Salo, but all that was plainly obvious to all fans and FIA officials alike. The team orders Ferrari had for MS were nothing compared to this total fiasco!

Sniffpetrol has made it's opinion on the matter quite clear I see. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by markabilly

You refer to team orders rule---something I have never understood as being logically enforced by FIA, (as with a million other things that are FIA, common logic has nothing to do with nothing)

The rule seems to be that team orders affecting outcome of race are okay, unless they produce a public display that makes it seem that the orders are affecting the outcome of a race or one of the drivers makes a big public fuss, making it bad for the sport

In other words, it is okay to quietly arrange pit stops, etc., so that they affect the race outcome or permit a teamamate to get ahead, but it is NOT OKAY to have the paddle man hold a car for too long while the other driver sits behind and then later fusses--even in qualifying, after the other driver broke team orders as to who was to do what---I guess that is not quiet enough. It is not okay to have one driver sit in pit stall to keep other driver out, if the other driver fusses loudly enough.......

It is NOT okay to have a teamate pass another teamate on the last corner per team orders where everyone can see it....but earlier in the race, if done without being too public, it is okay and it is okay to tell a team mate to back off another team mate (or so it seems) again as long as there is no big public fuss...

Please do not respond that such a rule makes no sense, is subjective and so forth, but that seems to be the "real rules" behind the team order rule..... :rolleyes:

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Yep, it is a very ambiguous rule.

I’ve always thought that the purpose of "no team orders" rule was to avoid obvious displays of favouratism; specifically to avoid further on-track incidents like the Schumacher – Barrichello one in Austria.

Another thought - the FIA want to ensure that Hamilton isn't favoured over Alonso - this is after a) allowing Hamilton to be craned back onto the track under pretty dubious circumstances, and b) penalising Alonso 5 places for holding up Hamilton in the pits. Looks to me like it's the FIA that have been favouring Hamilton.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Yep, it is a very ambiguous rule.

I’ve always thought that the purpose of "no team orders" rule was to avoid obvious displays of favouratism; specifically to avoid further on-track incidents like the Schumacher – Barrichello one in Austria.

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It is. But because they need to try and avoid "loopholes", the rule is formulated in a vague way. Please refer to my signature for more conclusions ;) :p :

As others have said in various ways, how can this ever be defined or enforced? Utterly ridiculous. I would love to read an explanation of how it can.

Everyone is fed up that apparently there will be someone appointed by the FIA to check that FA receives equal treatment in his quest against LH.

Not being fond of any of the two drivers I can only say that it was a very very good move by the FIA to accept the Spanish Federation's request, because let's not forget it wasn't the FIA's idea.

FA made a public comment about his fears that the team may disadvantage him in comparison with Hamilton. It wasn't because he knew that McLaren will do it, it's (as it was the case with Renault 1 year ago) just a very astute way to make sure that this won't happen, as McLaren can't afford to make any mistake now that the Spaniard has directed all the eyes on them.
And as we all know a day or two later McLaren felt the need to declare publicly that they won't favor any driver. At this moment it was 1-0 to Alonso.

Why did the Spanish Federation feel the need to ask for the right to closely watch the proceedings from the McLaren box, or were they (as some believe) invited by McLaren to do so? I have no idea.
But we know that the FIA happily accepted it as they know that this will only add to the transparency of the final fight. And at this moment transparency and fair play is all that F1 needs.

The FIA know that the person appointed for this task won't be able to check everything, not even if it was Ross Brawn himself, McLaren knows it also, Alonso and the Spanish Federation know it too. It's just a move to give people a stronger impression of fairness no matter what happens.
Don't worry, no matter what happens, no one will come screaming that Ron favored Hamilton! ;)

In the end I fail to see why everyone is so outraged because of this so called "checking of McLaren's intra-team equality"! And everyone also includes Jackie Stewart, who should know even better than us, with his ridiculous claims. :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

...It wasn't because he knew that McLaren will do it, it's (as it was the case with Renault 1 year ago) just a very astute way to make sure that this won't happen...

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Can you explain why the FIA did not send one of their officials into the Renault garage to ensure that Alonso was being treated fairly or equally?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Can you explain why the FIA did not send one of their officials into the Renault garage to ensure that Alonso was being treated fairly or equally?

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Because the image of the sport wasn't at a low as it is now and because Renault weren't a team with the "Chater's" label hanging over their heads, and also because he wasn't fighting his team mate in the WDC fight.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Because the image of the sport wasn't at a low as it is now and because Renault weren't a team with the "Chater's" label hanging over their heads, and also because he wasn't fighting his team mate in the WDC fight.

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Well Renault had been caught "cheating" (with their use of the mass damper), and their #1 driver was complaining that he didn't have the support of the team he was driving for. Sound familiar?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Well Renault had been caught "cheating" (with their use of the mass damper), and their #1 driver was complaining that he didn't have the support of the team he was driving for. Sound familiar?

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Very, I don't suppose there is a common denominator here do you?

Like, perhaps, Alon_______so unhappy that I am being beaten by a rookie, and therefore he MUST be getting better treatment.

Tsk :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Everyone is fed up that apparently there will be someone appointed by the FIA to check that FA receives equal treatment in his quest against LH.

Not being fond of any of the two drivers I can only say that it was a very very good move by the FIA to accept the Spanish Federation's request, because let's not forget it wasn't the FIA's idea.

FA made a public comment about his fears that the team may disadvantage him in comparison with Hamilton. It wasn't because he knew that McLaren will do it, it's (as it was the case with Renault 1 year ago) just a very astute way to make sure that this won't happen, as McLaren can't afford to make any mistake now that the Spaniard has directed all the eyes on them.
And as we all know a day or two later McLaren felt the need to declare publicly that they won't favor any driver. At this moment it was 1-0 to Alonso.

Why did the Spanish Federation feel the need to ask for the right to closely watch the proceedings from the McLaren box, or were they (as some believe) invited by McLaren to do so? I have no idea.
But we know that the FIA happily accepted it as they know that this will only add to the transparency of the final fight. And at this moment transparency and fair play is all that F1 needs.

The FIA know that the person appointed for this task won't be able to check everything, not even if it was Ross Brawn himself, McLaren knows it also, Alonso and the Spanish Federation know it too. It's just a move to give people a stronger impression of fairness no matter what happens.
Don't worry, no matter what happens, no one will come screaming that Ron favored Hamilton! ;)

In the end I fail to see why everyone is so outraged because of this so called "checking of McLaren's intra-team equality"! And everyone also includes Jackie Stewart, who should know even better than us, with his ridiculous claims.

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My feelings are based on the fact that if you read my posts, I think it is a joke--and really insulting to a real race fan....

Just what is he going to do? Check air pressures? Check engine mapping? Examine clutch parts? Run engines on dynos? Measure ride height?Check air/gas composition in tires? Check shocks to ascertain proper rebound?

or just stand around and go :monkeedan

Maybe he could check Mac for flexible floors or hidden mass dampers that work better on LH's cars rather than FA?


Oh, I get it, you say it is because:"It's just a move to give people a stronger impression of fairness no matter what happens."
Sort of like having a referre/umpire in thos pro westling matches!!!! gives a stronger impression of fairness.....well all they have to do is :beer:


If they want " a really big shoooooww" of fairness, the kind that PT Barnum would put on, I still say the best way is to start flipping quarters (or max/benie) such that neither the team nor FA or LH know what car/set up they will have right before qualifying and the race....with special pit crews selected from other teams...Might be a big joke as well, but it would ensure more fairness than this big joke.... :crazy: ...

and add more suspense and drama ("will he go or will he stay..." just like all the posts on who is driving for who next year), especially since passing does not happen in races and when attempts are made, are likely to result in penalties than a real pass,...... esp. with like the Kube attempt on LH..........

Will the FIA also be ensuring that the inherent disadvantage the rookie Hamilton is at compared with the twice WDC Alonso is ironed out?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Will the FIA also be ensuring that the inherent disadvantage the rookie Hamilton is at compared with the twice WDC Alonso is ironed out?

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And what else? Maybe allow Fernando to use only one hand to bring him down to Hamilton's level?! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Can you explain why the FIA did not send one of their officials into the Renault garage to ensure that Alonso was being treated fairly or equally?

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Because they weren't approached by the Spanish Automobile Club?

People seem to be seeing this as it being against Mclaren, but, to be honest, I think it will help them.

If Hamilton wins the title, as I expect him too, then having an observer in the garage from the FIA gives Alonso's inevitable after-season outbursts very little credibility.