What Happens Next?

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Originally Posted by OWFan19

Because I am mad at Champ Car for running its opperation like a hobbist, then I am an IRL troll.

I had a realiy check this week. I am frustrated with Champ Car. Look at the situation with an open mind and not emotional bond with Champ Car, and the reality looks bad.

My handle is OW Fan, I am an Open Wheel fan. Alex Zanardi was and is my hero. Greg Moore was my hero. I was a CART guy through and through. But this was not what I loved.

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Well, it wasn't me who suggested that you were a troll. But above, where you seemed to just see ONE screwed up series, I saw two.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the current Champ Car operation. It is a poorly run mess at the moment. Those of us who were CART fans have been told on numerous occasions that this Champ Car is not CART's Champ Car, and has no connection to the old Champ Car. "This is a brand new business!" M'kay. If that's the way it's gonna be, so be it. In high school, a girlfriend broke up with me. Said we needed to see other people. M'kay. I started going out with her sister a few weeks later: younger, cuter, taller, sluttier. :s mokin: So I'm not one to tell someone NOT to choose the lesser of two evils (or the more fun evil :D ). But I still see TWO screwed up series... one just more screwed up than the other right now. Neither is a model of racing success. Before singing Indy's praises, one might wonder if its ratings will bottom out at around 4, or if they will soon sink into the 3's. When you said that Indy was "the largest sporting event in the world", I assume you were speaking about attendance. In terms of commerial value, it used to be one of the biggest. Now it's not even in the Top 10 (Daytona is #4). Is it still bigger (commercially and attendance wise) than anything on the CCWS calendar? Yep, always has been and probably always will be. But the world does not revolve around, and sponsors are not restricted to open wheel racing ONLY. The world is passing us by while these two sad series try to drag each other further into the mud. That is what I meant by irony. It wasn't a dig at you.

Hey Garyshell, chill out. I am not demanding anything from the members of this forum -- especially respect. I also think being entrenched in a cult mentality won't change the world for the better. Cheerleading from either side leaves me cold. I lose respect for anyone who attempts it because I know better. I also have a right to my privacy. Given the very ugly nature of some who I have encountered is this phase of the split, it must be that way. I also think that the fans actually matter far more than people in the industry who consider themselves insiders. This whole Split nightmare would have never happened if TG and CART's managment and the team owners had remembered that fundemental truth back in the first half of the 1990s. Okay, I do know the key people involved on both sides and I sincerely doubt they would do it all again in the same way. But that is history... I am focused on the future. A better future. That starts with thinking about what might be possible and asking the fans what they really want. What should it look like? What comes next?

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Gary, you are clearly the most self absorbed champcar cheerleader there ever was

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I think,,,,,, you owe Gary,,,,, an apology,,,,,,

:D

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

I am focused on the future. A better future. That starts with thinking about what might be possible and asking the fans what they really want. What should it look like? What comes next?

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They want more excitement, without having to bring in contrived gimmicks.

Powerful wingless OW cars that have to rely on hard slicks for mechanical grip will open up more braking areas, more passing opportunities, and more sideways action will work! CCWS hasn't exploited the potential of a control chassis.

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

1. Yes, with the appropriate changes I believe CCWS will be very marketable, distinct and unique. It starts with the cars.

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Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

For the same reason, the issues in the IRL won't be resolved in any way by any decision Honda makes. Any leader of vision can take those challenges and overcome them.

Dr. Jack, I don't know WHAT comes next, but I do believe I know how it happens. The series that finally figures out this entire deal is about its people - and the way they will be successfuly marketed - will be the series that survives. It ISN'T about the cars.

Look back at the CART news releases from 1995 - 1998 or so. What a marked contrast. You didn't see Craig or Pook's name mentioned at all. It was all about the drivers. Even the manufacturers then had the wisdom NOT to make it about their chassis, their tires, their engines. They made it about their drivers and their teams.

It was all about marketing the drivers and teams. And it caught the imagination of the racing-enthralled public.

Show me a month's worth of press releases from either series that doesn't mention Tony George, Brian Barnhart, Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson or Tony Cotman and concentrates on marketing marketable drivers and teams, and I'll let you know What Happens Next.

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

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Originally Posted by tbyars

Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

For the same reason, the issues in the IRL won't be resolved in any way by any decision Honda makes. Any leader of vision can take those challenges and overcome them.

Dr. Jack, I don't know WHAT comes next, but I do believe I know how it happens. The series that finally figures out this entire deal is about its people - and the way they will be successfuly marketed - will be the series that survives. It ISN'T about the cars.

Look back at the CART news releases from 1995 - 1998 or so. What a marked contrast. You didn't see Craig or Pook's name mentioned at all. It was all about the drivers. Even the manufacturers then had the wisdom NOT to make it about their chassis, their tires, their engines. They made it about their drivers and their teams.

It was all about marketing the drivers and teams. And it caught the imagination of the racing-enthralled public.

Show me a month's worth of press releases from either series that doesn't mention Tony George, Brian Barnhart, Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerry Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi, Steve Johnson or Tony Cotman and concentrates on marketing marketable drivers and teams, and I'll let you know What Happens Next.

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

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The Panoz doesn't go far enough in addressing a problem that is increasingly plaguing top open wheeler series, and that is the technology taking away from the racing. What I am saying is that a powerful wingless car will be a lot more marketable as it will produce more opportunities for better racing, as I have said. I believe the spectacle and radical uniqueness of the cars WILL result in gaining popularity of the series. The racing media would go wild that an AOW series with powerful cars would remove the wings.

I'm sure there is sponsors out there that would try a series that is unique and spectacular. At the moment it is just another formula series. Money will come from this, and eventually top tier drivers wanting to come to CCWS. And top tier drivers are infinitely more marketable than pay drivers, or seemingly second-rate F1 drivers.
I'm saying that the equipment in this scenario would be the catalyst for change. As well as making the racing better.

I do like the idea of a wingless, powerful car. It is different and it stands as a unique measure of drivng ability is a sea of super downforce generating clone mobiles that make it harder and harder to see driving talent instead of setup talent. A change like this could be a profound shot in the arm if the drivers embraced it as the truest test of pure talent. I also agree about heros being the focus rather than the politics (a wingless car with big HP could help there). That latter subject is the ultimate buzz kill to casual fans. I will be interested to see what the Art Center IndyCar 2011 project is that Gordon Kirby and David Phillips have written about and if and if it has any relevance to this subject. I fear it will be just another empty PR excercise...

What should Champ Car's car be after the DP-1 if there is a ChampCar in 2010?

What happens next?

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Originally Posted by garyshell

I have never claimed to be anything except a fan. I am sick and tired of all of these supposed insiders, on BOTH sides, coming here hiding behind a screen name. I participate in all sorts of forums in my own industry, I have never found any reason to hide behind a screen name. I have never found any reason to say anything about my industry that I would not put my own name on. If I am afraid to put my name on it, I don't say it. Period. It's called CREDIBILITY. Look it up.

We have no way to know who amongst these insiders is really on the inside, who really has some dog in the hunt, who has some ax to grind with a previous employer or employee etc. All because none of these "insiders" has enough balls to say who they really are. Anyone can be anyone they claim to be on the internet. None of you hiding behind a screen name has one scintilla of credibility. Get over it. Respect can not be demanded as you all seem to think. It can only be earned. I have never once demanded any credibility here, I have always and will always say I am a fan, an opinionated fan, no more no less. I am not the one coming here claiming to know how this series MUST be run or who's head needs to be on the chopping block next. No it is the "insiders" doing all that. I am just the one here saying the emperors have no clothes. Especially when the emperors aka "insiders" come here and ask for opinions and then lay in wait so they can tell the fans who respond how wrong they are and how only the anointed insiders can possibly know what is right.

Did I ever ONCE say there was no need for a radical change? I've been quite vocal in calling for some radical changes, not in the managment area because I don't pretend to know the specifics of what needs to be done there, but in the cars themselves because I do feel that as a fan of racing for over 50 years, I do know what has made the racing exciting to a fan in the past and what is missing now. Look at some of the other recent threads for that.

By the way, I'm still waiting for all you experts to tell us what is next?

Gary

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Gary (and sanguin), save your breath. It's a no-win proposition, don't ya know, because you're dealing with self-professed, powerful "insiders" who know so much more than the rest of us peons. Those who are so quick to tell you how powerful and connected they are, but won't man up and reveal their secret identities. Like a certain poster who goes by the name of parts of the foot that I suspect may actually be found to be implanted in his mouth!
This person who has claimed to sit on the board of directors of several major corporations and big-time sponsors - yeah, right. If you're that big and powerful, do you really expect us to believe you'd have time to come argue on these goofy message boards? I could claim to be KK, or GF, or PG, or any other person connected to the series that I want, and since these boards ensure a certain amount of anonymity it would be darn difficult to prove otherwise. If anyone asked too pointed a question I could just clam up and state that I couldn't divulge confidential information, or information that was sensitive to sponsor negotiations, or some other wild excuse. It's a game people play. It's a big reason why these boards have become less enjoyable to read and more insignificant - every thread eventually turns into a "urination competition" (sorry, gotta please the censors!), and there are far too many participants whose main competitive effort is "I'm more in the know than you are because..."
The upside to this is I'm actually getting myself weaned off these message boards a bit! There's a whole lot of better things I can do with my day.

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

I will be interested to see what the Art Center IndyCar 2011 project is that Gordon Kirby and David Phillips have written about and if and if it has any relevance to this subject. I fear it will be just another empty PR excercise...

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I agree, its just a piece of paper with nothing behind it. smoke and mirrors.
8 years with the same car,because they have nothing coming down the pike.

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

What happens next?

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I'll bite, but DrJack, I want a quid pro quo.

What happens next? Assuming that Assen is as successful as claimed (65,000 attending on Sunday, waits for the suites), CCWS will continue to be a global series, and focus primarily on venues outside NA. From the article published by MarkC:

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So what is Champ Car's future?.... Is it more international, more non-U.S.?...

"It's called the World Series, Champ Car World Series. We did that on day one," said Kalkhoven.
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[KK]: "We've learned that there are other parts of the world, as Formula One departs, that have a great interest."

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That doesn't mean I think CC will give up NA entirely, but unless/until nascar cycles down, and makes things a more level playing field as far as sponsors and TV packages are concerned, then I think you'll continue to see fewer and fewer NA races. Maybe a 60/40 split in overseas/NA tracks.

Also, I don't see a wingless car, and I don't think the general public would either. See the Hot Rod cover in this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Cars
Is that the idea you're going back to? Or am I wrong? Most people with any idea of racing's history would think they were watching a historic race. How could you differentiate something like the Lotus from what you're proposing?

Although I have an opinion, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll keep my trap shut and wait to hear what you have to say. So I'm asking you: What happens next?

What Happens Next?

Well, if there is a 2008 season, it will have the following...

1. Season preview that promises much and delivers little

2. 16/17/18 cars underfunded cars with second rate drivers and ride buyers

3. 13/14/15 races with 9/10 of those outside the USA

4. 2/3 races on the schedule, but not confirmed and ultimately cancelled

5. More buying of Network TV time slots and lower ratings year on year, due to poor TV coverage and presentation in places like Canada, Mexico, Australia and others.

6. No series sponsor, even though lots of rumours will promise as much

Is that what you were thinking Dr Jack Miller?

On the subject of “What Happens Next” it was an interesting weekend. I am encouraged to see signs of life at both the CC and IRL races with healthy crowds and good-looking events.

I know there are those who will debate attendance or who had the better race but that is getting really tedious.

I was amused to read David Phillips comments in his Sunday notebook on SpeedTV.com about the refreshing honesty of the Assen promoter in giving attendance numbers. It makes the promoters here look very bad indeed.

On the subject of this thread, “What Happens Next?”, I saw stories about both the Amigos media conference on the future of ChampCar and on the Indy Car State of the Series press conference. What a contrast in tone and content...

In answer to David St. Hubbins' question about what I think will happen next?

Hey, some of it happened today.

The Amigos spoke about a brighter day ahead. The usual “trust me” and “wait until next year” stuff we have been hearing for four years was spewed on a new continent. Sorry but I am not buying any of it this time. I gave at the office gents!

So... KK and PG tells us they are changing their plan yet again and charging off to Europe. What happened to the American National Championship that the Amigos claim as their rightful heritage whenever it suits them? I particularly like all the comments about how the world loves American stuff like ChampCar. I want what the Amigos are Smokin’ becuase without it, they sounded like has-beens in the making to me.

The IndyCar Series guys surprised me with the timing of their press conference but upon reflection, it made sense to do it in Detroit, in the heart of sponsor budget season. Some of what they said was interesting and the full transcript is on IndyCar.com along with a video that is boring to watch. Above all, they seemed more professional and organized than the Amigo's all-to-often FEMA, post Katrina style briefings. Time will tell if the IRL guys are spewing spin like the CC G5 fly boys did from their vacation in Europe but from what they hinted at, I do think they are getting ready to throw some Tonybucks out there to lure some CC teams over to the IRL. It may work given how many times the good ship Champtanic seems to have run into very bad things this season. People have mortgages to pay and families to feed and I am sure that many a team member in Champ Car is asking themselves “what the hell am I doing here” about now.

After reading all of this (including my favorite headline this week: "61,000 Dutchman can't be wrong!), I really think what will happen next is the Amigos will run out of stories to tell, people to dupe and excuses to make and they will either fold their tent or reach for the peace pipe. I think they all should be promoters and team owners and that nature will run its course. Ditto for TG… but I can’t imagine TG letting go as easily as the Amigos will.

So what I see is a compromise where TG and the IRL run the regular IndyCar season in North America and the Amigos run a fall and winter league in Europe, Asia… wherever. All should be under one set of rules and one brand but I can’t really see it being Champ Car’s. My hunch is that all this will ultimately be defined by TG and the IndyCar Series because they hold the most cards.

Of course there will be more promises, firings, key hiring’s, fallen F1 teams and drivers rumored to be coming to ChampCar, mega new urban events that somehow never work out and a civil trial in California in October before all this is all over… but I do believe it will be over.

I know the foregoing seems like the end of the world to some here but I can tell you first hand, that for those of us who work in the business, the past dozen years has been the end of the world. Thankfully the gong is about the sound on the Amigo’s ego-o-rama and someone will finally “win” this sad war. I just hope it is the fans not TG who get the ultimate say in what happens next.

With the Indy Car rules under review there is some small hope that all may come to their senses and do what is right: One series with all the great drivers in fast, sexy cars, multiple manufacturers, a diverse schedule that has a vibrant competitive environment and venue mix that reflects what CART was while keeping the spirit of IndyCar and Champ Car racing’s rich shared heritage alive and thriving. No contrived racing and no more Pee Wee’s manager and his pervy old sidekick. One more thing, ISC and SMI can have their 1 1/2 mile tracks for monster truck races if the new IndyCars cannot be configured to race safely on them without running in flat out packs of mayhem and doom.

I know everyone may not agree --- especially CC'ers like Sanguin or the IRL lovers like IndyCool but what we have now in either series is simply not good enough. I want to gag every time I hear one side or the other attempt to argue that they have “the greatest on track product the planet”. Hmmmm. Why then are both series so seriously shy of audience and sponsors?

It is now time to get real boys and girls or get left behind when dawn breaks on a new day.

As for the cars, I want something fresh. It is time to zero the tach and start a new race to a fresh identity without all this baggage. I want these new cars to be what every driver worth a damn on the planet wants to drive because they beautiful, powerful, and fast. Most importantly, I hope they require courage, commitment and skill… and the ability to skillfully modulate the throttle at every track on the schedule.

While reading the IRL State of the Series story and transcript on IndyCar.com, I found the following link to a short video on the Art Center Indy Car 2011 project. It was interesting in that Robert Clarke seemed committed to the Indy Car Series and TG seemed to like the idea that the cars need changing. Good... I guess, but given the IRL’s history in such matters, I remain worried that the ugly stick will still be used in the final design process. But, judge for your self and check out the video. BTW, the existence of the video and the comments made in the IRL press conference about the IRL’s future car plans stand in conflict with Sanguin's view that the IRLs new car initiative is “just a piece of paper”.

http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=9686

One last thing I want is for IndyCar/ChampCar drivers to be famous in America again for something other than finishing fourth in the Indy 500… or being on ‘Dancing With the Stars”… or crashing all the time… or having goofy looking shoving matches with helmets on.

But what I want probably doesn’t matter as much as what you want.

So... What happens next?

What happens next? Champcar finally steps up and gets an extremely active promotional campaign made for television.....

Intersting reading some of the above. Unfortunately like many others CCWS isn't cutting it at all this year. I have been away for a while, and to catch up with CCWS in ASSEN to hear that the race in Phoenix is gone, well that kinda sums up everything doesn't it. (the Assen race looked packed out, great crowd. Belgium didn't look so good though).

I just typed a whole load of stuff up about this topic, then deleted it. Whats the point the whole thing is a joke!!!!!

Why should any company be interested in sponsoring a two bit series, (IRL or CCWS).

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Originally Posted by almost everyone

So... What happens next?

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First, fans on internet forums will reenact the same battles from the last 10 years over and over again with the same results. The same arguments will be trotted out and rehashed with no conclusion. A fanatical supporter will attack anyone who disagrees with their view of the CC world and call them a troll (or worse). The fan with a gripe will accuse the cheerleaders with having their head in the sand (or elsewhere). Why?

The sports world is changing. The world is changing. No sports entertainment will grow if it holds no attraction to the non-fanatic, non-racing public. The thoughts of a few internet fanatics and critics mean almost nothing in the marketplace. The question should be asked "what do casual racing sports fans expect to see"?

IMHO, the problem today with CCWS is that it is one of the best racing series that no one knows about. It has perhaps one of the best matched fields of teams and drivers of any series. So why is no one watching and no one seems to care?

The casual fan watches to be entertained. They expect a professionally run event and series that runs smoothly, gives them information about what is happening, and has interesting people involved. Sadly, Champ Car falls short on nearly every one of those points. Events get canceled, the schedule has no continuity, they have alienated the media so we get little information, we learn very little about the people as they keep changing, and the series sometimes just comes off as a bunch of amateurs. The power to pass debacle at Assen is a perfect example. This system has been in use all year and they still can't get it right? That is inexcusable. Where are the priorities?

They seem to be a sound ship with some leaks and yet no rudder to get them to port.

Ok, so what happens next? No one seems to know what the Amigos expect to happen next, but if the series is to grow, it has to address some fundamental issues. Anyone who has ever been in a successful business (and racing is a business) knows there are certain elements to success.

1. Give the customer something they want. Actually CCWS does a good job here as the racing is mostly very good.
2. Treat the customer well. Here they can do better. Media coverage from TV to print is uneven and sometimes lacking, so the customer has trouble getting information. They don't always treat the fan as a honored partner.
3. Marketing. Even a crappy company can survive if they market well and create a positive image. There are many poor run companies that thrive because they has created a perception of success. As for the marketing in CC? No comment needed.
4. Have some quality control and problem solving systems in place. Here they fall flat on their face. Silly technical problems like the PTP problem reappear, there has been a number of engine blowups (in a controlled spec series it should be very rare), they seem surprised too often when an event is canceled or something goes wrong, and they seem to repeat errors over and over again. Who is piloting the ship? Cottman seems to be the first to actually address some of the the problems, but is he too little too late?
5. Consistent long range plans. Every company needs to forecast their future. Almost every decision and plan relies on the forecast being accurate, complete, and achievable. Some business actions take a long time to achieve, and the path can't wonder or the goal will never be reached.

The last point seems to be the biggest problem with Champ Car. The amigos had a five year plan, but it seems to change every year. When one thing works, that suddenly becomes the target. First it was street racing festivals. Then someone realized just how expensive they were to put on and how much they relied on local funding. Now, with the success or Zolder and Assen, it suddenly looks like the international market is the goal. The hints in the latest press lead to a conclusion that the international market is the focus. Will CC leave the US for other markets? It sounds that way.

Tbars said it best about the equipment. It isn't about the cars or high tech or low tech or the spec cars or non-spec cars. It isn't about aero subtleties or downforce. It is about putting on a good show. It is about getting the fans interested in the people, interested in watching, interesting in seeing something that tickles their senses. Most casual fans couldn't tell the difference between a Lola, a Panoz, a Dallara, a McLaren, or a Ferrari. They are all just open wheel race cars with wings. But they can tell the difference in the quality of the show around the cars and people.

So, what happens next? Until CC can decide who they are and what they are, much of the sports public will be confused. Are they a street racing league? Are they the real legacy of open wheel racing in the US? Are they an international series, mostly based outside of the US? Are they a pinnacle sport or a temporary holding area for drivers looking for a place to work until something else opens up?

Some fans have simply thrown up they hands and walked away. The dismal TV ratings and lack of media coverage seems to support the idea that no one cares much anymore. Some will blame other series (and people) , but any company that doesn't focus inward and fix the internal problems doesn't have to worry about the competition. They will destroy themselves from within.

Champ Car still has an opportunity to fix the ship and sail into the sunset. But until it has a rudder, and a captain, it will circle around the fringes of the sports world until no one cares any more.

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

On the subject of “What Happens Next” it was an interesting weekend. I am encouraged to see signs of life at both the CC and IRL races with healthy crowds and good-looking events.

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Uh no, Belle Isle only has 25k seats and they were not full,even the freebies can't get them to watch the IRL product. CC wins this one by a long shot.

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On the subject of this thread, “What Happens Next?”, I saw stories about both the Amigos media conference on the future of ChampCar and on the Indy Car State of the Series press conference. What a contrast in tone and content...

In answer to David St. Hubbins' question about what I think will happen next?

Time will tell if the IRL guys are spewing spin like the CC G5 fly boys did from their vacation in Europe but from what they hinted at, I do think they are getting ready to throw some Tonybucks out there to lure some CC teams over to the IRL.

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News flash! everyone that wants to be in IRL is already there and TG doesn't have enough money to throw at anybody else, he has to keep throwing it just to keep the teams he has going and to fill the grid at the 500. TG is out of bullets. This business plan is stupid and based on kiling another series, doomed to fail. There is nothing great about the IRL's struggle to keep 18 cars on the track.

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So what I see is a compromise where TG and the IRL run the regular IndyCar season in North America and the Amigos run a fall and winter league in Europe, Asia… wherever. All should be under one set of rules and one brand but I can’t really see it being Champ Car’s. My hunch is that all this will ultimately be defined by TG and the IndyCar Series because they hold the most cards.

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What cards? No one wants Richmond, Kentucky, Iowa, Nashville,Homestead.Do you see anyone that is envious of the IRL? You make me laugh. The 500 is failing every year in attendance and ratings.The schedule is not what anybody wants except your diehard IRL fans, all 20 off them.And then you all sing RP's praises for giving that crappy Belle Isle race and taking away MIS.

We have LB, Cleveland, Houston,San Jose, RA,Las Vegas, Portand in the US, all tracks TG wants.

No ,give this one to CC.

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It was interesting in that Robert Clarke seemed committed to the Indy Car Series and TG seemed to like the idea that the cars need changing. Good... I guess, but given the IRL’s history in such matters, I remain worried that the ugly stick will still be used in the final design process. Sanguin's view that the IRLs new car initiative is “just a piece of paper”.

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Yes it is just a piece of paper ,a design by some students? Are you serious? TG has made announcements for a new car ,when was that ? back in 2004? Remember, he had to cancel because that's when the wheels starting falling off the IRL, everyone was leaving. Honda is so "committed" until they follow Toyota into nascar. So far they won't be in the IRL in 2011.

I find it interesting ,that you suck up all TG's empty promises and yet CC has delivered on a number of theirs, new car,its real and its good,new car and revived Atlantics with the drivers moving up to CC. TV contract, new events, new teams,new sponsors,secured events like LB and Toronto,2 successful European events. That's good for 4 years.

Please do tell what TG has accomplished in 12 years of IRL? Lost manufacturers, teams ,sponsors and tracks.Scraping together a grid by putting Roth and Milka in as backmarkers.Depending on honda to bring in cut-rate sponsorship and pay the salaries of the old CART drivers.So many freebies given out to get an audience at the tracks they will never be able to get anyone to buy a ticket again. What ever...

No, CC is not going to save TG or his IRL now. What happens next? CC continues to define who,what and where the best ways are to grow their series. They have a good base in the US, and can continue to expand to become the WORLD series.

Meanwhile TG still continues to limp along in front of empty stands jonesing after CC.

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

---

Like he said, "the IRL is jonesing after Champ Car." Delusional is an understatement, I was thinking loser. Sanquin, who I think is Steve Johnson or someone else heavily invested into Champ Car, needs to get a clue. I would be supprised if anyone in hear actually reads his post anymore. The Belle Isle race was packed yesterday, I dont know where he gets his numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

Dear Sanguin, (or should I address you as E. Sanguin Cipponym?), please take a break from your Dutch Daydream and ask yourself if anyone really believes what you are writing here. The word "delusional" defines your view from where I sit. Who on earth is looking longingly at the so-called business that is Champ Car and saying to themselves "wow, brilliant!" outside of the four self-impressed Amigos? Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real but that is not the issue in my book nor is it justification of ChampCar's whacky, wandering trip to near-zero credability, (tragic) cultural-irrelevance and almost certain extinction. For me, and I hope for anyone who really cares about what is best for American Openwheel racing, the issue is: What is now possible if The Split is not in the way? Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history. All the die hard Amigo lovers probably feel this way, but for the rest of us who suffered through guys like you and the Amigos who were on the IRL side in the begining, hey, your point of view has had its day. The Fab Four have also had their chance to prove they can cut it and just like Sarah Fisher, they haven't and it is time for them to move on. 300 Million Americans can't be wrong, eh? Just like Jack Long did for the IRL in 1996, you are selling something that has a stink on it. People usually won't buy something that stinks unless they stink too.

---

Thanks...I really didn't want to take any time out of my last day of vacation to summarize what you've done for those of us who know better about the travesty that is CCWS :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tbyars

Boy, here is a big one for me.

I have been involved with a number of technically-oriented industries in my days. And the best lesson I have ever learned is that it DOES NOT start with the equipment. The equipment is never the key. PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS THE KEY. And I believe motorsports is no different whatsoever.

Many, many CCWS fans went into 2007 with this attitude that the DP-01 would be the savior of the series, "The Future of Racing." That, IMO, is a crock. What a short sighted, ignorant statement. Look how 2007 has turned out. Misdirected loyalitites. Misdirected priorities. I give you the 2007 "breakout year" CCWS series as proof.

FORGET ABOUT THE CARS. Forget about the chassis, forget about the engines, forget about the tires. All of those things, in ANY motorsports series, are nothing more than selecting a vendor, something that has to happen in every business in the world every day.

(snip)

What do the fans want, Dr. Jack?

They want heros who capture their imagination.

---

I agree w/ your statements whole-heartedly.

I know that my broken record refrain angers hard-core car guys, but I'm explaining the facts of life in auto racing in our era.

The DP-01 isn't the key to, or even a major part of, CCWS's success. Most race fans, aside from the rabid CCWS fans, couldn't pick it out of a lot full of open-wheel cars. The fans don't care about turbo vs non-turbo either. CCWS could be running stock minivans for all the good that the DP-01 does them right now.

It doesn't even matter about driver talent.

What matters is that sponsors find a driver that can market their products. That driver becomes spokesmodel for that product, and the racing series. Witness what, say, Pepsi has done for Jeff Gordon, or what STP did for Indy back in the 1960's. When a sponsor makes a car a celebrity, good things happen to that driver's racing series. When that driver is an A-list celebrity, known by more than race fans -- say, a Richard Petty in the 1970's, or Mario and AJ in the 1960's -- then the series has a chance of breaking into the big time.

The nice part of Indy is that they still have the marketing concentration to make a driver into a star. CCWS lacks that ability at this point, and until they find a way to make a driver into a A-list celebrity, they will be a higher form of Star Mazda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

Okay, I agree that IndyCar has problems that are deep and real

---

I agree.

Quote:

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Okay, people with extreme views like you have will certainly lose voice if The Split ends -- especially now. So I can see why you attack because this is a fight for your ego's survival as the upsidedown world you live in looks like it is about to fade into history.

---

This isn't about me or any poster, this is about the IRL wanting CC.It's true, the whole thread is about how CC's owners should give everything to TG.

It gives CC much credibility.

What Happens Next?

Well, I watched Assen and really enjoyed it. The crowd looked good and even though there was little passing, it was a tactical race much like modern Formula One. However, I can't help thinking that this is not the long term answer for Champ Car.

CCWS may well decide to have more non-Nafta races, which pay the bills and permit profitability. However, this means abandoning any hope of being a force in American Open Wheel and capturing NAFTA based sponsorship.

Now, a global model may work, if they plan carefully and target sponsors who want a global presence and can't afford Formula One. However, to capture this new money, they still have to be more professional and prove to potential sponsors that they are providing value for money. In effect, they would be marketing themselves as Formula One "Lite". If that's the way the CCWS leaders want to go then fine, but as an ardent F1 lover, I will take the real thing every time.

I fell in love with CART/Champ Car because of the multi discipline racing. Road Course, Street Course, Superspeedway and Bullring Oval. I was intrigued by the close racing and personalities. Truthfully, in any given race over 50% of all starters had a genuine chance of winning, because of the nature of the rules, cars and circuits. Finally, it was professionally run.

I support CCWS, but the leaders make it hard for you to have any confidence in what they are doing and thus the future of the sport.

I have never worked in the motorsport industry, so I really can't comment on how difficult it must be to manage and run a racing series. However, I work in Investment Banking and have for the past 14 years. I am judged on results and delivery. If I didn't deliver, then I would be fired. I manage complex projects and deal with clients every day where millions of dollars are involved. I have to make plans and decisions and think carefully about the right way forward.

Forgive me, but surely the CCWS leaders must make plans and have targets as well? Is it me, or does it appear to anyone else like the leaders are just winging it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanguin

I agree.



This isn't about me or any poster, this is about the IRL wanting CC.It's true, the whole thread is about how CC's owners should give everything to TG.

It gives CC much credibility.

---

I can tell you, directly, from what IRL people have told me this summer -- TG doesn't "want CC". They might take one or two races, and would like to have a few teams, and would welcome the absence of the "split" distraction, but there isn't much on the CCWS side that TG wants.

AS I've said, TG isn't waiting for CCWS to "give" anything. He's waiting for the bankruptcy.

Okay, I give up.

Is Dr. Jack really Chris Pook in disguise?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

So, what happens next?

---

Along with securing their “bombshell” title sponsor and continuing support from Mazda, CCWS’ fate is hinged on China.

Quote:

---

The Honeywell Turbo Technologies Shanghai Global Technical Services group is located on the site of the Honeywell R&D Center in Shanghai. It was established in August 2002 and has grown to almost 140 employees, and it will continue to grow. The group consists of four Design groups, an Engine and Turbocharger Test Facility; a Metallurgy Lab, a Prototype assembly group, a Structure & Fatigue group, a Rotor dynamics group, a Vibro-acoustics group, an Aerodynamics & Reliability group, Configuration Control and a Product Engineering Group. Our task is to design and develop Turbocharger and Charge-Air-Cooler products. The purpose of the Turbocharger is to reduce the exhaust emissions by allowing a reduction in engine displacement without a noticeable loss of engine power and to improve the drivability of the vehicle. We provide our employees with technical and business training, both in Shanghai and overseas, which allows the group here to provide expert technical and professional services to both our internal and external customers. Eventually we expect Shanghai Global Technical Services to become one of our premier technical centers, not only due to our business development strategy, but also due to our positive working attitude.

---

Quote:

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Sanders continued, “The Mazda and AER engineers are working closely with Honeywell Turbo Technologies on the development of a new Garrett motorsports turbocharger design for this engine program. The overall LMP2 program is driven by Mazda engineering, as we use motorsports to help develop future advanced technologies with the potential to transfer over to our production vehicles.”

---

Quote:

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SHANGHAI--Mazda Motor Corporation today held an opening ceremony for its new Shanghai-based company, Mazda Motor (Shanghai) Business Management & Consulting Co., Ltd., established to integrate its business operations in China.
The new company, more commonly referred to as Mazda China Operations (MCO), was inaugurated at 10 a.m. with an official opening ceremony, tape cutting and a launch party. About twenty new staff and Mazda executives, including John G. Parker, Representative Director & Executive Vice President of Mazda Motor Corporation, attended the event. Later in the afternoon at a nearby hotel, approximately 230 guests--including Shanghai municipal government officials, attendees from the Consulate General of Japan in Shanghai, Mazda’s corporate partners in China, and suppliers--took part in the festivities. The MCO office is located on the twentieth floor of the Shanghai Information Tower, in the Pudong business district.
“We are celebrating the MCO office opening today, and I am very pleased to say this also signals the start of Mazda’s full-scale operations in the Chinese market,” said Parker. “As Mazda’s China headquarters, this company will play a prominent role in coordinating our business activity in this important market, and the office and staff are an integral part of attaining positive results here. June first is also Children’s Day, so I would like all of you to keep a close eye on Mazda’s ‘new child’ that has just been born here in China.”
Mazda has set a mid-term goal to build a framework that can produce and sell 300,000 units in 2010 as it sets out to expand its China business.
To achieve its goals in China, Mazda confirmed on January 7, 2005, that it would participate in a joint venture with Changan Ford to build a manufacturing facility in Nanjing, to expand its production capacity. On May 25, Mazda announced that it had gained government approval to establish a joint venture engine company project in Nanjing with the Changan Automotive Group and the Ford Motor Company. Additionally, on March 1, Mazda jointly established the FAW Mazda Motor Sales Co. Ltd. (FMSC) with its Ford and First Auto Works (FAW) partners to further strengthen its sales system.
Mazda plans to augment its product lineup by introducing eight new models to the Chinese market in the next three years. As a start, Mazda will begin sales this summer of its four-door, four-seat, rotary-engined brand icon RX-8 sports car.
MCO was established in January 2005 to coordinate all areas of Mazda’s China business operations. Kiyoshi Ozaki, Director and Senior Executive Officer at Mazda in charge of China business, was appointed Chairman of the Board of MCO. Satoshi Tachikake, General manager of Mazda’s China Business Division, became President and CEO of the new company.
Mazda’s production and sales have demonstrated strong growth since its business operations in China gained momentum in 2000. Amid intensified competition in the Chinese passenger vehicle market, Mazda sold 97,132 units in 2004 (up 21 percent from the previous year), the third consecutive year of sales growth ahead of total market demand. In 2005, despite a January-April drop of 4.2 percent in demand, Mazda has sold 42,514 units in wholesales (an increase of 25 percent over the previous year’s pace) with sustained high sales growth.

---

-John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geek49203

I can tell you, directly, from what IRL people have told me this summer -- TG doesn't "want CC". They might take one or two races, and would like to have a few teams, and would welcome the absence of the "split" distraction, but there isn't much on the CCWS side that TG wants.

AS I've said, TG isn't waiting for CCWS to "give" anything. He's waiting for the bankruptcy.

---

That's why TG will fail, that's a stupid business plan. It doesn't take much to plunk down some money and race at the ISC tracks, he inherited IMS and the 500 is failing and RP revived an old CART track. They look like geniuses.They can go ahead and limp along in front of empty stands,that's fine by me.TG would like a lot from CC. I don't see anything CC would want from the IRL.

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

bankruptcy? ,that was 4 years ago, not going to happen again, but ,hey, keep wishing. They crack me up. CC has nothing to worry about.

Mods:

Don't you think it's time to shut this thread down?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blancvino

Mods:

Don't you think it's time to shut this thread down?

---

Agreed, please shut this down. It has digressed from a discussion on how to make CC better to the old traditional "blame the other guy" argument. Personally, I DON"T CARE what the other guy is doing. This silly pi**ing war has gone on long enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanguin

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

b

---

Respectable? Surely you jest?! Reality check...they cancelled THREE races this year. Next year's "opener" is already in jeopardy. The series is walking a tight rope in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sanguin

That's why TG will fail, that's a stupid business plan. It doesn't take much to plunk down some money and race at the ISC tracks, he inherited IMS and the 500 is failing and RP revived an old CART track. They look like geniuses.They can go ahead and limp along in front of empty stands,that's fine by me.TG would like a lot from CC. I don't see anything CC would want from the IRL.

What the CC owners is much more difficult,what they have accomplished in 4 years is respectable,especially going ahead with the new car. They are actually building a series.not waiting for something else that will not ever happen.That's why they will succeed.

bankruptcy? ,that was 4 years ago, not going to happen again, but ,hey, keep wishing. They crack me up. CC has nothing to worry about.

---

Jeez...

First, I said that TG's plan for dealing w/ the CCWS and the "split" is to wait for CCWS to die. That's not their entire plan for their entire operation, just the part that pertains to CCWS. That plan isn't unlike the plan that lots of companies have for their competition.


Second, put down that koolaid, back away from the table. Please go back to school and learn grammar.

Third, the title of this thread is "What happens next." It isn't "CCWS is better than IRL and can beat up your dad too." If you have a thought to post on how to improve CCWS, feel free to post it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pvtjoker

Respectable? Surely you jest?! Reality check...they cancelled THREE races this year. Next year's "opener" is already in jeopardy.

---

no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.

:rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starter

And have this spill over into other threads? Ummm....no. :D

---

Ummmm ... just DELETE the posts that get this chacha going. You have the power to stop it and don't. Why?

It's clear the good doctor started the thread to pick a fight and you mods allow it. This is not a discussion, it's a pissing match.

Ban me if you like but this is whacked!

If the Moddy's shut down this thread, they are nuts. This is one of the best threads we have had on this topic in ages. I was away from the computer all Labor Day weekend, so I am not going to try to respond to everything that was said, but I do want to thank "Dr. Jack Miller" for digging up this can of worms and gently nudging the conversation in a direction I have advocated for years. He is asking for a Merger here...and I was beating that drum 3 or 4 years ago and THEN I was abused. I see now a few of you have come around and the hard cores are fading.

Listen, let me put my cred and cards on the table here. I am a volunteer timing and scoring guy, or at least was up til this year. I have worked with SCCA Pro, CART, IMSA, Champ Car, ASA, CASCAR/NASCAR Canada, and the CASC organization in Canada. I know people who work for most of these bodies, and I have been around race tracks all my adult life. I have no money invested, but I am a fan of all types of racing. ALL. I also dislike intensely what Tony George did to this sport in 1995. I was against it then, and I knew why I was against it. It forced me to take a side in a battle that shouldn't have been fought. I also love the Indy 500 and the lore and history that came with it.

So I have been straddling the divide on and off for a few years, for although I hated the IRL in its early years, I have noticed it has come around to being a reasonably well run business. I have watched CART take what was the moral high ground, all the top teams, engine manufacturers and a ton of money and pour into a toilet. I am now watching the CCWS take a lot of money, shore up some of the infrastructure, and then have no focus for marketing, no direction and no competant management. IT is to WEEP.

Some of you need to get a clue. Both of these series are limping along, but the huge difference between the two is the Amigo's are NOT putting their money in any meaningful way into marketing their series to North America. What is more, the Amigo's have quit on the US, and quit on what made their series unique. Now they want to go to Europe, go to markets where F1 has left or gave up, and then get those fans? I can say cash grab my friends, because they are not sharing with the likes of Dale Coyne are they?

No, here is the problems as I see them:

1) Champ Car really has changed direction and focus so many times, no one can believe their new found devotion to Europe now. What about the events that never happened? Is anyone to be fooled by the bad business practices that led to Phoenix failing? Denver? China? My god, the dead bodies are piling up...

2) The IRL, despite a few people's best fanstasies isn't going away. Tony Is spending his money and is willing to spend it if he has to make things happen. This fiction no one is watching the races is just that, fiction. When someone shows me how the crowd at Tremblant is a roaring success and more people show up to Detroit and that is a failure, then I guess I might change my mind, but lets face the reality. Both series get fans at some venues, and others don't draw as well. No one is accurate with their attendance figures, but I do know from watching IRL events and CCWS events on TV, I would hardly say the IRL is failing. I would also point out, yet again they are getting PAID for their TV product. CCWS is getting NOTHING for their TV, while TG pays to keep his series going if he has to, but he is getting money from TV and hasn't lost the confidence of the networks. The TV situation is the millstone around the Amigo's neck, and going to Europe isn't helping.

3) No one wants to deal with 2 leagues of racing. This was SO obvious in 1995, but is now part of the reality that people ignore. The casual fan doesn't care about the differences, and doesn't want to figure it out. He turns on NASCAR, and they promote their drivers and the magic of the sport. Here, we try to ignore the reality that the guys you are seeing, about half of them woudln't have rides in a strong unified OW series in North America. Strength of field, whether in names that people have heard of, or just plain depth is the problem that leads to marketability and selling the series. Every year CCWS has to explain to its fans who the hell half of their drivers are? People are saying "but I liked Andrew Ranger, why did he lose his ride" are never given answers that make sense, and they get ticked and they go watch a series that doesn't treat its talent like toilet paper. If any of you CCWS pom pom waving types care to explain to me why we take half our field and dump it for new names only on financial reasons can be seen as a good thing, have at it.


NO, Here we are having a frank discretion about what is wrong with CCWS, the IRL and OW in general. In short, this debate should be joined in an intelligent way and kept going, for as long as it takes. What many of you guys who refuse to see the folly in this are missing is NEITHER series is making money, but they keep up the fiction that they are just steps away from doing it. IRL purists claim the Amigo's are just steps away from bankruptcy here, CCWS guys say if Honda is gone, TG will fold. Well, people, this layman see's the former, but not the latter. Tony has spent what it takes for 12 years now, and he out lasted CART, so don't go smoking any more dope celebrating him giving up now.

I believe the Amigo's will sell to the IRL, and end it all. I don't like that scenario, but they have quit leading this series in a meaningful way, and I didn't know better, I would swear GF and KK have let Gentilozzi run this series this year. It has all the earmarks of a Gentilozzi operation.

WE need a merger of some sort, and the best thing us Champ Car fans can hope for is that some of the best parts of Champ Car management and events make it through the merger. I may not like George, but he has been proven right on this much, the people running CART didn't know what they were doing. It appears now the CCWS guys dont' seem to have much more of a clue. When you make Tony the smartest guy in the room, you are really done.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

If the Moddy's shut down this thread, they are nuts. This is one of the best threads we have had on this topic in ages. I was away from the computer all Labor Day weekend, so I am not going to try to respond to everything that was said, but I do want to thank "Dr. Jack Miller" for digging up this can of worms and gently nudging the conversation in a direction I have advocated for years. He is asking for a Merger here...and I was beating that drum 3 or 4 years ago and THEN I was abused. I see now a few of you have come around and the hard cores are fading.

Listen, let me put my cred and cards on the table here. I am a volunteer timing and scoring guy, or at least was up til this year. I have worked with SCCA Pro, CART, IMSA, Champ Car, ASA, CASCAR/NASCAR Canada, and the CASC organization in Canada. I know people who work for most of these bodies, and I have been around race tracks all my adult life. I have no money invested, but I am a fan of all types of racing. ALL. I also dislike intensely what Tony George did to this sport in 1995. I was against it then, and I knew why I was against it. It forced me to take a side in a battle that shouldn't have been fought. I also love the Indy 500 and the lore and history that came with it.

So I have been straddling the divide on and off for a few years, for although I hated the IRL in its early years, I have noticed it has come around to being a reasonably well run business. I have watched CART take what was the moral high ground, all the top teams, engine manufacturers and a ton of money and pour into a toilet. I am now watching the CCWS take a lot of money, shore up some of the infrastructure, and then have no focus for marketing, no direction and no competant management. IT is to WEEP.

Some of you need to get a clue. Both of these series are limping along, but the huge difference between the two is the Amigo's are NOT putting their money in any meaningful way into marketing their series to North America. What is more, the Amigo's have quit on the US, and quit on what made their series unique. Now they want to go to Europe, go to markets where F1 has left or gave up, and then get those fans? I can say cash grab my friends, because they are not sharing with the likes of Dale Coyne are they?

No, here is the problems as I see them:

1) Champ Car really has changed direction and focus so many times, no one can believe their new found devotion to Europe now. What about the events that never happened? Is anyone to be fooled by the bad business practices that led to Phoenix failing? Denver? China? My god, the dead bodies are piling up...

2) The IRL, despite a few people's best fanstasies isn't going away. Tony Is spending his money and is willing to spend it if he has to make things happen. This fiction no one is watching the races is just that, fiction. When someone shows me how the crowd at Tremblant is a roaring success and more people show up to Detroit and that is a failure, then I guess I might change my mind, but lets face the reality. Both series get fans at some venues, and others don't draw as well. No one is accurate with their attendance figures, but I do know from watching IRL events and CCWS events on TV, I would hardly say the IRL is failing. I would also point out, yet again they are getting PAID for their TV product. CCWS is getting NOTHING for their TV, while TG pays to keep his series going if he has to, but he is getting money from TV and hasn't lost the confidence of the networks. The TV situation is the millstone around the Amigo's neck, and going to Europe isn't helping.

3) No one wants to deal with 2 leagues of racing. This was SO obvious in 1995, but is now part of the reality that people ignore. The casual fan doesn't care about the differences, and doesn't want to figure it out. He turns on NASCAR, and they promote their drivers and the magic of the sport. Here, we try to ignore the reality that the guys you are seeing, about half of them woudln't have rides in a strong unified OW series in North America. Strength of field, whether in names that people have heard of, or just plain depth is the problem that leads to marketability and selling the series. Every year CCWS has to explain to its fans who the hell half of their drivers are? People are saying "but I liked Andrew Ranger, why did he lose his ride" are never given answers that make sense, and they get ticked and they go watch a series that doesn't treat its talent like toilet paper. If any of you CCWS pom pom waving types care to explain to me why we take half our field and dump it for new names only on financial reasons can be seen as a good thing, have at it.


NO, Here we are having a frank discretion about what is wrong with CCWS, the IRL and OW in general. In short, this debate should be joined in an intelligent way and kept going, for as long as it takes. What many of you guys who refuse to see the folly in this are missing is NEITHER series is making money, but they keep up the fiction that they are just steps away from doing it. IRL purists claim the Amigo's are just steps away from bankruptcy here, CCWS guys say if Honda is gone, TG will fold. Well, people, this layman see's the former, but not the latter. Tony has spent what it takes for 12 years now, and he out lasted CART, so don't go smoking any more dope celebrating him giving up now.

I believe the Amigo's will sell to the IRL, and end it all. I don't like that scenario, but they have quit leading this series in a meaningful way, and I didn't know better, I would swear GF and KK have let Gentilozzi run this series this year. It has all the earmarks of a Gentilozzi operation.

WE need a merger of some sort, and the best thing us Champ Car fans can hope for is that some of the best parts of Champ Car management and events make it through the merger. I may not like George, but he has been proven right on this much, the people running CART didn't know what they were doing. It appears now the CCWS guys dont' seem to have much more of a clue. When you make Tony the smartest guy in the room, you are really done.....

---

Mark, Amen to what is posted above. I have loved the clairity and sincerity of all you have written over the years. What you write comes from that good place that is at the heart of what makes this sport so special. It is all about a passion for progress.

I came to this board and started this thread because I feel the tipping point is finally before us and we all need to consider "what happens next?".

Personally, I just want the future back on track both in the litteral and the figuative sense.

I feel that everyone who loves our sport, (depspite all its current warts) needs to burry the hatchet and focus on what will make it great again and not spend another selfish moment trying to justify the failed visions (from both sides) that created this sorry mess.

There are good things and good people in each series and the time is now here for all of us to put our egos aside and pull in the same direction for betterment of the sport. That will take inspired leadership from someone... and that is the real problem in my mind. People inside and outide the sport need something and someone to believe in and more simply put, believe.

The right person with the right attitude, credability and vision will make all the difference in this battered and brusied world we all care so much about.

But who fills those shoes?

It isn't Chris Pook, BTW! (and no, I am not the Pookster!)

How can all this play out in a good way?

What happens next?

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Originally Posted by DrJackMiller

(snip)

How can all this play out in a good way?

What happens next?

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I think that we need to look at modern motor sports in a different way here.

Auto racing is fueled by sponsor dollars, not methanol or ethanol or whatever. In a great world (in NASCAR land?) you've got sponsors that make your drivers into stars -- witness what Allstate has done to Kasey Kahne. Therefore, you have to make the series into a sponsor's dream.

NASCAR got the attention of sponsors 'cause you could sponsor a car with lots of surface panels that could be clearly read (due to size and speed of the vehicle) on any part of the track. ESPN wasn't real picky about showing sponsors logos on their broadcasts (unlike Fox today), and sponsors realized that (circa 1998) they could put $5 million into a top-running car and have tons of exposure on TV. Of course, now things are different, and quite frankly, you're starting to see some of the problems.

So, we need to build a series where the benefits of the exposure far outweigh the costs to participate. The DP01 was a step in the right direction, NOT because it was better looking than the IRL car, or faster, but rather because it contained costs and regulated competition. Ditto w/ the Cosworth effort - the show can be controlled by the sanctioning body, and everyones costs are contained. That part is in place.

Sponsors need to feel like having their driver on a TV commercial will sell more products. That means that the teams must make TV presence part of the selection process. Right now, the driver w/ the dollars is the driver that runs, and sometimes they aren't the most PR-friendly people.

I have been around this sport longer than most and have done just about all there is to do except own a major team. I have even worked alongside Ron Dennis! He was a F1 mechanic then and I was the Gopher.
IMO both series are in trouble and I do not have the answer. New cars are not. Who cares except for fanatics?
Locally a NAPCAR rain out gets more space in the papers than an IRL or CC race or even F1 results.
I think part of the problem is driver recognition or lack of. Joe Blow fan and even non fans know the names of several NAPCAR drivers. I see decals, caps, jackets and tee shirts for NAPCAR all the time. I have even seen WOO tee shirts. This is not at the track but in this area (Georgian Bay, Midland , Orillia). I have yet to see any CC or IRL anything.
That said, on driver recognition I see far more promotion and recognition of IRL drivers than CC. CC has PT and Seabass, who they are losing, and even they are not household names. With all the hype most people know who Danica is. Hornish, Kaanan and Marco Andretti are fairly well known as are Michael and Penske. Beyond that who knows the rest, even Franchitti or Dixon? OWR needs to make there drivers better known. IRL seems to do better aided of course by the 500.
At this late stage to rebuild OWR is going to take time and hard hard work with results, not hype. It is also going to require one series however that may occur. I know who I don't want to run it and that is TG and/or the Amigos or NAPCAR. However, I expect one will end up in charge and it may well be NAPCAR which will always relegate OWR to 3rd rate.
Not that the above has accomplished anything but to let me blow off steam but those are my thoughts.
By the way I lurked on this forum for some time before I joined and decided not to use my name as IMO there was too much nastiness toward posters. I do post on other forums under my name and I have told one regular poster here who I am. I am nobody important but now just a fan. My only claim to fame is I have been around this sport (business) for over 50 years and have become very cynical.

Jack, Drifter and a few others are saying what I have been saying for a while. The sport needs to heal, and it needs to get a lot further down the road in a hurry if it is to be relevent. We know what we don't want, but the reality we are getting is much closer to what we don't want than we would like.

Those of you who blindly believe in the "vision" of Champ Car and what is is doing should be chagrined that people involved in the sport such as Jack or Drifter are coming out of hiding to say what they are saying. I don't know either one personally, but I do know that I know many who think just like them who ARE involved in racing.

I am a fan, but I am a fan who has been around racing long enough from close enough to the inside to see what people are thinking, and no one really likes where Champ Car or the IRL are going.

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Originally Posted by sanguin

no its not. You seem to want to believe all the fantasies of the IRL's.

:rolleyes:

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Yep. Maybe I'll start disbelieving when they start canceling races mid-season.

How can you HONESTLY say CC is maintaining a level headed business plan when the current CC regime routinely promotes and then cancel races and barely attract sponsors to the series? You can't. While I appreciate your bullish approach to CC you 'll never convince most that the series is as healthy or rosy as you paint it. The series isn't quite in the "crapper" (yet), but they are hardly on the road of prosparity. IMO, the series is mirroring the latter days of Trans-Am more and more each day.

I guess were in need of ANOTHER 5-year plan. Only this plan will bank on Europe being be its savior. We'll see how it pans out. I know one thing, if this is the case, NA won't be watching the series with quite the same vigor as it does now. Let the "F1-lite" comparisons begin...

Joker, rarely do I agree with you, although sometimes partially I agree with you....but this time...you hit it right on the head man....

Actually i can see at least one positive matter - dropping the rivalry between teams on a technical basis and as a consequence the very high and the pointless expenditure. So i think the specification chassis is good, very good, not only for price but also for every technical (and safety) regulations of interest. Of course this can be dangerous by eliminating the diversity of manufacturers. Nevertheless , the positive direction is easily seen - cut the cost of cars/racing to the (reasonable of course) limit.