The Crane and Lewis

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

When the Torro Rosso hit the crane the safety car was already out as he narrowly missed hitting hit first.

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That does not mean the crane/front end loader/tractor had any right to be in an area where cars were likely to come off at speed.

The tractor should only be deployed when there is no longer any likelihood of any cars going past. Had a red flag been shown to stop all cars on track to return to the pits at pedestrian speeds, that bloody JCB/ tractor/pseudo crane call it what you like should not have been there, let alone be lifting a car on a sling. How bloody dangerous was that?

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

That does not mean the crane/front end loader/tractor had any right to be in an area where cars were likely to come off at speed.

The tractor should only be deployed when there is no longer any likelihood of any cars going past. Had a red flag been shown to stop all cars on track to return to the pits at pedestrian speeds, that bloody JCB/ tractor/pseudo crane call it what you like should not have been there, let alone be lifting a car on a sling. How bloody dangerous was that?

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THE SAFETY was completely ignored and by luck, nothig really bad happened otherwise it could have been one of the most disaster in F1.

I'm sorry to deny what some said about the SC, but in the precise instant when Lewis car was put back on track, the race wasn't red flagged, and the safety car was about to be deployed (but not yet).

If someone want to take a look at the race history chart (http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...y_Chart_07.pdf), Lewis finished lap 4 behind Winkelhock, but before Massa and Alonso; he doesn't appears on lap 3, as he was on the gravel.

Winkelhock passed lap 3 with an advantage of 36 seconds to Massa, and passed lap 4 33 seconds before the brazilian, but with Hamilton behind him (though lapped).

If safety car would be deployed between laps 3 and 4, Winkelhock advantage would be disappeared in lap 4, as the SC speed would make the group to get closer in less than a lap.

That means Winkelhock reached the SC after passing lap 4.

But Lewis passed lap 4 just behind him, and as he was left by the crane on turn 1, that means the crane arrived, took Lewis' car, and put him back on the track, before the SC.

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2...milton_des.jpg

Thanks andreag! I think that F1 cars were coming off that corner long before the SC arrived and went past while Lewis was lifted back onto the track. Does anyone wish to state otherwise?

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Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

Despite what happened yesterday, even Hamilton staying in his car, he was puting as well his life in danger as we have seen one spyker (If I remember very well) kissed a little bit his rear wing. Imagine what could have happened if the spyker had collided into the Mclaren?!

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I guess the point here ought to be made that;

F1 is a dangerous sport, due to the speeds the cars race at. They are designed with safety cells, collapsible structures front, rear and to the sides.

As soon as the teams see the cars aquaplaning they tell their drivers to slow down, so the end of the straight becomes less unsafe.

If the 'other' drivers slither off, did not think to clutch in the engine, then that is their issue. Lewis kept it going, was assisted away from a potentially dangerous spot (run off gravel - which incidentally is more and more being changed to tarmac) and was able to continue.

Now, you can all bleat on about this was wrong, that was wrong, was it a JCB, or a crane blah blah blah, but the prescedent has been set - at the same venue, by Schumi a while back, who also knew the rules, had the foresight to keep the engine running and got the help from the marshalls.

Get over it guys.

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

just how big of a fraud the British media is.

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Could not agree more. Why, the scum British press are so dishonest these days, you'd do well not to believe the date they print on the front their dailies.

I appreciate the Safety Car being out and appreciate the need to remove vehicles quickly, but the positioning of the safety car on the first turn, where there was clearly a major problem, seems wrong. Ideally beofre the corner where the problem is, or in Sundays case he'd been better around the first turn. I guess you can't tell, till it happens, but when cars are sliding off at slow speeds under safety car conditions, then clearly the track is not safe, so red flag it, when everyone has parked on the start finish line and no one is coming past then get the tractor out.....

As for cars not getting any assistance after stalling or spinning off I wish we would take a leaf out the Champ Car/IRL book. Lets get them back on the track and running.

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Originally Posted by andreag

I'm sorry to deny what some said about the SC, but in the precise instant when Lewis car was put back on track, the race wasn't red flagged, and the safety car was about to be deployed (but not yet).

If someone want to take a look at the race history chart (http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...y_Chart_07.pdf), Lewis finished lap 4 behind Winkelhock, but before Massa and Alonso; he doesn't appears on lap 3, as he was on the gravel.

Winkelhock passed lap 3 with an advantage of 36 seconds to Massa, and passed lap 4 33 seconds before the brazilian, but with Hamilton behind him (though lapped).

If safety car would be deployed between laps 3 and 4, Winkelhock advantage would be disappeared in lap 4, as the SC speed would make the group to get closer in less than a lap.

That means Winkelhock reached the SC after passing lap 4.

But Lewis passed lap 4 just behind him, and as he was left by the crane on turn 1, that means the crane arrived, took Lewis' car, and put him back on the track, before the SC.

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2...milton_des.jpg

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The safety car was on track when Liuzzi hit the crane that was going to save Hamilton from the gravel trap, so I can't understand how is that the SC was not deployed when Hamilton was lifted back on track? :rolleyes:

When an accident occurs , and the car is beached , a driver is encouraged to exit quickly when he deems it safe , but he is also receiving instructions from 2 sources .
He will have his radio contact with his pits , and corner workers nearby . This is essential , as he is largely un-sighted in the cockpit .

I must watch the replay , as I want to see what instruction the corner guys were giving him , as it seems that perhaps words in his ear piece were telling him to stay put .
Being that there were cars careening towards them , one after another , those safety guys may have told him to stay strapped in , or may have overlooked him for a moment , as they saw to others' safety , or thier own .

The situation was similar in Brazil a few years ago , and we almost had a "crane" hit then , too .

In this case , being that he was in the same kind of safety cell that saved Kubica in Canada at frightening speed , and that a car even hit that "crane" while positioning to pick him up , I think he was wise to stay where he was , as he was likely in a safer place in the car at the time .


One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

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A very good question too, as I understand Liuzzi had just exited the pit (according the commentary)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

just missing that safety car

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Both Liuzzi and Maylander were very lucky that Maylander somehow saw him coming and got out the way just in time :eek:

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Originally Posted by ioan

The safety car was on track when Liuzzi hit the crane that was going to save Hamilton from the gravel trap, so I can't understand how is that the SC was not deployed when Hamilton was lifted back on track? :rolleyes:

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The SC entered the track on lap 3; but it wasn't until Winkelhock passed lap 4 when he came behind (and the rest of the cars too).

But the point was if the crane entered the gravel trap before the SC signal appeared, and it's clear on this video, it entered prior to the SC signal, just a couple of seconds after Button crashed, and just when Hamilton was stopping his run, as it can be seen on this video (at 5 minutes, 0 seconds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcMqdIPzf9A

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

A very good question too, as I understand Liuzzi had just exited the pit (according the commentary)

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An even better question is how he could leave the pit, if according to the rules, pit lane is closed as the SC is deployed.

3:40 "Winkelhock in the rain, a sensational tenth ! " :rotflmao:

ORF commenting is crap, I'm glad I don't have them on my watch list :D

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Originally Posted by andreag

The SC entered the track on lap 3; but it wasn't until Winkelhock passed lap 4 when he came behind (and the rest of the cars too).

But the point was if the crane entered the gravel trap before the SC signal appeared, and it's clear on this video, it entered prior to the SC signal, just a couple of seconds after Button crashed, and just when Hamilton was stopping his run, as it can be seen on this video (at 5 minutes, 0 seconds):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcMqdIPzf9A

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Safety car was barely moving at 6:00 in that video and began moving after a car had accelerated from the edge of turn 1, whose car was that?
Hamilton's?

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

3:40 "Winkelhock in the rain, a sensational tenth ! " :rotflmao:

ORF commenting is crap, I'm glad I don't have them on my watch list :D

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You tell me?!
Hans Prüller has troubles to make a difference between an overtaken car and the overtaker.
I miss the times when I was watching F1 on the Italian television, it was far better than what I get now.

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Originally Posted by janneppi

Safety car was barely moving at 6:00 in that video and began moving after a car had accelerated from the edge of turn 1, whose car was that?
Hamilton's?

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No, Liuzzi. Who incredibly was leaving the pit lane when the SC was on the track (not only the SC signal), and it's supposedly close. Of course he couldn't continue (the crane didn't help him), and the 10 seconds penalty coudn't be applied, but no sign of this appeared

There are some issues that we need to watch in this situation,

The only reason for Hamilton to keep his engine running it was:

-Not damaging the car by going to the gravel
-Very early stage in the race, lap 4 or so, with the new safety car rule of unlapping himself and with the rocket that Macca is, he could even fight for points.

-So, for him it was worthy to keep racing.

but the fundamental thing here it is, if the Safety car rules were still the same
as last year's rules, and Hamilton was still helped to keep on racing by the crane, could McLaren could stop racing without a mechanical failure with the only motive of "not having a real reason to fight in this race", can a team do that, stop because they have nothing to fight for in a race anymore, or is it illegal??

I remember Honda did it in Australia 2005, both Honda cars were out of the points and they called them to the pits to retire motivated by the recent engine rule changes of one engine for two weekends recently applied back in 2005.

I'm getting messy, did anybody understand me?

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by andreag

No, Liuzzi. Who incredibly was leaving the pit lane when the SC was on the track (not only the SC signal), and it's supposedly close. Of course he couldn't continue (the crane didn't help him), and the 10 seconds penalty coudn't be applied, but no sign of this appeared

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I don't mean liuzzi, who flew into the crane :)
But the car that accelerated from corner 1 just as SC was entering it.
at 6:01 we see SC slowing to an almost halt, at 6:06 we see two F1 cars and the SC, Liuzzi is flying from right to left and one F1 car is accelerating from the corner.
Is that Hamilton or possibly one of the Williamses?

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Originally Posted by janneppi

I don't mean liuzzi, who flew into the crane :)
But the car that accelerated from corner 1 just as SC was entering it.
at 6:01 we see SC slowing to an almost halt, at 6:06 we see two F1 cars and the SC, Liuzzi is flying from right to left and one F1 car is accelerating from the corner.
Is that Hamilton or possibly one of the Williamses?

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I see; it was Davidson, who nearly reached the gravel when he spun off, stopping just in the border; he could restart unaided, and he was just leaving the dangerous line when the SC has to accelerate to avoid Liuzzi's hit from behind.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

When an accident occurs , and the car is beached , a driver is encouraged to exit quickly when he deems it safe , but he is also receiving instructions from 2 sources .
He will have his radio contact with his pits , and corner workers nearby . This is essential , as he is largely un-sighted in the cockpit .

I must watch the replay , as I want to see what instruction the corner guys were giving him , as it seems that perhaps words in his ear piece were telling him to stay put .
Being that there were cars careening towards them , one after another , those safety guys may have told him to stay strapped in , or may have overlooked him for a moment , as they saw to others' safety , or thier own .

The situation was similar in Brazil a few years ago , and we almost had a "crane" hit then , too .

In this case , being that he was in the same kind of safety cell that saved Kubica in Canada at frightening speed , and that a car even hit that "crane" while positioning to pick him up , I think he was wise to stay where he was , as he was likely in a safer place in the car at the time .


One question , though , would be why Luizzi was travelling that fast .
I know they are citing a suspension fault , but he flew over that curbing , just missing that safety car , before he stopped at the "crane" .

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:wave:

Welcome back Bagwan, where have you been hiding? :p :

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

I guess you have been asleep for several years? Or maybe you never read British trash?

I'm so happy Hamilton showed up to show just how big of a fraud the British media is.

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Yes, well your dislike of everything British is well known.

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Originally Posted by Ian McC

Yes, well your dislike of everything British is well known.

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And well deserved.

I'll repeat a point I made earlier. Might have been in this thread, even. There's so much bollocks being talked that I forget.

You can argue all you like about whether Hamilton's "assist" was dangerous or unfair, but it was legal according to the letter of the rules. ANY competitive sportsman learns the rulebook and uses it to their advantage. If you don't like it, protest the FIA to change the rules. Don't criticise Hamilton for being smart enough to keep the engine running and get back on track.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game" as I believe our transatlantic brethren would say.

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Originally Posted by leopardsleeping

It took effect according to the priority:
1. Who is still inside the intact car
2. Whose engine's car is still running
3. Who came in the gravel first
4. Who want to continue the race
5. Who is the promising driver to get any better after continuing the race

Hamilton had the above criteria :D

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Hamilton was one of the few who stopped short of hitting the barrier. Button had damage as did Sutil. At least one of the STR cars (Luizzi) was done for the day. Not sure about Scott Speed.

I don't think people realize the sheer stupidity exhibited by the FIA and what precedent has been set here. Now everyone will make sure they have a fool-proof anti-stall mechanism, and no matter what the conditions are or where they are at on the track, they can now demand that their vehicle be lifted back onto the track. Sounds like a pretty safe situation to me. Uh-huh.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

ANY competitive sportsman learns the rulebook and uses it to their advantage. If you don't like it, protest the FIA to change the rules.

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What rule?

Can you, please, post a link to the rule about what a driver has to do to be put back on the track by a crane?

I would protest to change a wrong rule, if this rule would exists.

But it doesn't.

Maybe he learned there was no rule!!

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Originally Posted by andreag

You can also watch how Lewis is about to be put on the track again, as Winkelhock car is coming after passing the line at the end of lap 3, without any trace of a safety car:

http://mm.motor21.com/%2FEspa%F1ol%2...milton_des.jpg

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I think under the yellow flag driver should have driven more carefully, and when SC was about to be deployed they must have been told by the team. Their drive licenses have to be investigated if they have accident under the yellow, or SC, let alone red flag. What the yellow color and SC means on the top of picture?

Was it yellow flag on left of picture or someone's yellow umbrella because it was rain, it's more similar as someone under yellow umbrella. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by andreag

I see; it was Davidson, who nearly reached the gravel when he spun off, stopping just in the border; he could restart unaided, and he was just leaving the dangerous line when the SC has to accelerate to avoid Liuzzi's hit from behind.

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Thanks. your eyes are better than mine. :)

Over on http://www.planetf1.com there is a comment that says that:

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It's also worth bearing in mind that the treatment he got was illegal under the FIA's sporting code, which not only states explicitly that the cranes and recovery vehicles are "for the removal and recovery of abandoned race cars", but also that they "should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue".

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Link: http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...612235,00.html

I didn't read the whole rule book but if this person did it and found this than surely what happened was illegal.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Now, you can all bleat on about this was wrong, that was wrong, was it a JCB, or a crane blah blah blah, but the prescedent has been set - at the same venue, by Schumi a while back, who also knew the rules, had the foresight to keep the engine running and got the help from the marshalls.

Get over it guys.

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MS's car being half on the track (2 wheels on, 2 off) IS in a dangerous position, LH being 30 meters or so off the track IS NOT in a dangerous position (defined as dangerous to other drivers on the track.) You can't use the excuse that other drivers were going off at the same spot - that's exactly why LH should have left his car immediately! If Speed's TR had hit LH and injured him, you'd all be saying that he was stupid to stay in the car!

Using the "logic" of some of the obviously biased LH and McLaren fans, then all cars should be "craned" back onto any track no matter where they have gone off as long as the engine is running.

I want to know what the official rule is!!

The rule seems to be defined by whatever the marshalls feel like doing.

Schumacher got a hand in 2003 at his home turf whilst Alonso in a similarly dangerous position at Monza in 2004 copped the back hand of the marshalls.

But I don't understand why Hamilton got lifted back onto the track in such dangerous conditions. That was just dumb.

To quote paragraph 6.1, Chapter III of appendix H from the FIA Formula One World Championship Regulations:


'If a car stops: If a car stops on the course, or leaves the track, the first duty of the course marshals in that sector is to take it to a place of safety.


'No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals' instructions. Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start. In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. [P-F1's bolding] It is desirable that the driver stays near his vehicle until the end of the race or at least informs the post chief how his car may be lifted, or towed back to the pits.'

Chapter and verse. I just wonder now whether Hamilton's finish position will be erased, and the following drivers elevated one position.

Knowing the FIA's ineptitude, I would say "NO!"

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Originally Posted by wmcot

I want to know what the official rule is!!

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Try this:

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APPENDIX H TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE

CHAPTER III - EMERGENCY SERVICES

6.1 If a car stops

If a car stops on the course, or leaves the track, the first duty of the course marshals in that sector is to take it to a place of safety.

No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals’ instructions. Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start. In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. It is desirable that the driver stays near his vehicle until the end of the race or at least informs the post chief how his car may be lifted, or towed back to the pits.

11. Other services

The following services should also be provided:

- Vehicles for the removal and recovery of abandoned race cars:

Immobilised cars in unsafe positions should be removed to places of safety, either manually or by means of cranes or vehicles suitably adapted for the purpose of lifting a car. No other means of lifting cars should be used unless specifically authorised by the FIA.

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http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...pendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

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'No driver has the right to refuse to allow his car to be taken off the track, he must do everything he can to help and obey the marshals' instructions.

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What have happened to Lewis was in accordance with this article. He didn't make any refusal against what Marshal threated him, he would obey the marshal instruction if the crane finally lift him up and put him in the paddock or out of the barrier. I'm sure he will not jump out of the car when the crane was bringing him out of the track for the protest he still want to continue the race.

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Once the car is in a place of safety the driver may, if the specific regulations of the event permit, work on it in order to re-start.

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Once the car is back at the track that is permitted by the marshal (crane) quite safe for him to make a re-start, he did it, again no refusal against marshal instruction.
But if he didn't have chance to unlap up to reasonable distance behind driver in front of him he would have been back in the paddock of McLaren and didn't continue the race.

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In such cases other means, such as breakdown vehicles, cranes, etc. should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue. [P-F1's bolding]

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That's also a strong clausal for the Marshal to bring the crane into action because Lewis was in the car which had no remarkable damage, and the engine was running, that means it was obvious Lewis was wanting to continue the race.

Hence, after reading this article, they actually have the rule and not solely interpreting something out of the rule. I don't think Lewiss will be rule out from his position because he didn't do anything wrong against the rule.

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Originally Posted by andreag

Try this:



http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...pendix_H_a.pdf

I like this phrase: "cranes should not be brought into action until the driver has made it clear that he will not continue.

How could Lewis made it clear he will not continue (the only way for the crane to assist him), and then change his mind?

It doesn't smell good. In fact it stinks.

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Those of us that think it was not correct to help LH back on the track using a crane are just a few of the fans, most of the fans were happy to see their new hero be back (legal or not), so the FIA did what was best for the show.

I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D

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Originally Posted by ioan

...I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D

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I enjoyed his "monkey" race as well :D

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Originally Posted by ioan

I for one I'm not his fan but I'm happy that he continued and drove a "monkey" race! :D

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I bet the young man regrets that comment now :laugh: He is still young though and will learn the hard way.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I bet the young man regrets that comment now :laugh: He is still young though and will learn the hard way.

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I suppose so! ;)