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Like I said, nobody knows what's necessary to make it raceworthy on ovals. There is no kit. Because there is no kit, nothing has been put on to test it. There are plenty of surprises that CAD-CAM can't rectify. See Gordon Kirby's column on champcarworldseries.com about the hits and misses and fixes with the DP-01 for road courses.
So in other words, you don't actually have any evidence whatsoever to support your allegations that the DP-01 is not suitable for ovals, in spite of the actual fact that the manufacturer and the series specified and designed it to be oval capable. You also did not actually answer the question -- what would this so-called "kit" be comprised of? Just because the IRL Dallara and Panoz cars were NOT originally specified or designed to run on road courses, and had to have "kits" costing near $200k to remediate, does not mean that Champ Car and Panoz made the same mistake.
I did read Gordon Kirby's article, and it in no way does it support your negativity -- in fact it was extremely positive.
The whole point of the testing was to make sure that issues with the car would be ironed out before delivery to the teams, unlike previous cars.Quote:
"Mechanically, I can't think of any changes we had to make," Marshall observed. "We had absolutely no issues with the suspension and steering, and the engine and turbo did absolutely what they should without any problems. Nor were there any surprises on the aero performance."
"During testing we changed some configuration of how the bodywork goes together to make it easier to put a sidepod on the car in the heat of a race weekend," Marshall commented. "As you know, they come on and off the car an awful lot during a race weekend.
"We changed some things a bit rudely in testing and then we came back and changed the molds so we could do it properly. In some detail like that, the production car will differ from the prototype."
My allegation is that CC commissioned the car, CC is running all road and street circuits, as it sits there right now, nobody has made a kit to try to convert it to ovals, so nobody knows if it'll work or not.
And please provide a link where the IRL road-course kits cost $200,000.
In other words, you hope this is true, because otherwise the car is a threat to the status quo. It's a race car built by a company that has previously built race cars, including IRL race cars, so of course it will "work". You still haven't provided any clue as to what this "kit" might consist of. I can allege that you stopped beating your wife, and it would make just as much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
Since the league carefully put out the PR that it was much less (as you should know), we have only the word of industry folks, and they are not published.Quote:
Originally Posted by indycool
IC, you cannot state that this car isn't oval capable. You are not at Panoz, and you have no idea of the specs and aspirations were of CCWS when they commisionned the building of this car. Lets put something in print right now. Panoz can answer your questions but common sense dictates that Champ Car would have an oval package option that isn't tested yet. Champ Car up till this year always had an oval in the series, so I would suspect they would keep their options open.
To demean this car as unsuitable is just to be obstinate for the sake of being that way. Panoz I am sure has an idea of what they would need to bring out an oval package and they likely have all the engineering ground work ready.
If the IRL wants the DP01, they will not have a problem with it on ovals I am sure. No more than they had problems with the Dallara's and G-Forces on Road courses. It isn't rocket science. Your argument of the fuel buckeyes is just a facetious attempt to justify this argument that the DP01 is flawed for oval purposes. The Buckeye can be on either side very easily, for the fuel cell location would be unchanged behind the driver. A different air box engine cowl is a mere redrawing of the plans and putting the buckeye on the other side and mounting the hose on the other side. We are not reinventing the wheel.
No, if the IRL doesn't buy the Dp-01, I would perfectly understand, but to say it is unsuitable would be a joke. The car has just been unveiled. The testing and set ups are being done to ready it for the Champ Car customers. I am sure Panoz has thought ahead. If the IRL goes elsewhere for a race car, it is for political reasons, not the suitablity of the DP-01. There is no evidence to suggest the car isn't capable of only turning left....
Mark, my point is, there is no evidence that says it can, either. It is obvious that the Dallara and Panoz IRL cars would need work to accommodate road racing. With long lead time, they did it with kits. All we get, among all the overdone hype of the DP-01 as being God's gift to the racing world, is statements it can run on ovals. When it tests a kit on an oval -- and I think that's a long ways away -- then I'll judge it.
One more time -- what would this "kit" consist of?
It's a lot harder to convert an oval-only car that was never designed to run on a road course than it is to convert a car that was designed and spec'd to do both from the start. You know it, but, as Mark so rightly pointed out, you are just being obstinate.
IC, turning left all day is pretty easy. The only changes to any race car would be to put wings or undertrays on it to take some downforce out. Like Grungex says, a car set up with a left offset is the car that needs the engineering, not a road course car....
The DP01 could be made to IRL specs to run on ovals, it would take some redesign on some parts, e.g. there is no reason why the bare chassis and underwing could not run on an oval.
There's no real reason you couldn't run it as is on most ovals. Stick a spool in it and stagger the rear tires, done.
Grunge, you have pretty much put it in context. Take a bit of wing out to make things go faster in a straight line.....unless it is a flat oval, then dial in more wing....
[quote="indycool"]When it tests a kit on an oval -- and I think that's a long ways away -- then I'll judge it.[/QU
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Zs, I'll correct it to this: I'll believe it when I see it. Okay?
I'd sure like to see what hoop has to say about this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by grungex
Yeah, I'm sure he's the only one that knows anything about the subject. Why is it so darn difficult for you folks to accept that the DP01 was designed with BOTH road and oval capabilities and safety considerations in mind?
hoop is knowledgeable but, thankfully he doesn't have god-like status on this forum that he has on crackforum.
Grunge they don't want to accept it in the same way that most of em probably don't know that the current IRL cars were NOT designed to be used on road courses and had a lot of systems offest for oval duty that had to be redesigned. With Panoz being the people who did the g-force, they likely know damned well that that is a mistake they didn't want to make again, that is make a car for one type of racing. Both the Champ Car boys and IRL cars go left and right, but Champ Car up to last year also had an oval. You can bet they will race on an oval in the future. I doubt highly they would hem themselves in. It isn't logical, but of course, logic never had anything to do with this whole argument IMO.
So that's where he landed! Traded us in for T/F, eh? :dozey:Quote:
Originally Posted by T-D
I miss Hoop....he said some interesting stuff....
Knowledgeable guy....and more important, he'd say if he DIDN'T know the answer and not fake it.
Please reread my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by grungex
I was not making a statement about the capability of the DP-01.
I was asking about your comment, made without any study so far, that it was/will be easier to convert the DP-01 to ovals than it was to convert the current IRL car to road specs.
I'm not sure that is a true statement. I'm not sure that it isn't.
Since NOTHING but the prototype has even been on the track yet, I'm just not so sure how you can make that statement.
Walker has already said some of the suspension parts on the DP-01 need some modification before they will be acceptable for the planned schedule this year, i.e. road courses. How much more modification will they need for a high speed oval where g-forces are much higher much more consistently? And that's just one area that may need study.
We don't yet know how the DP-01 will react in the dirty air traffic will bring. We sure don't know what aerodynamic changes well be required when a couple dozen cars are running together at 220 mph.
I didn't say the DP-01 wasn't capable. Just like putting the IRL cars on a road track, I have no doubts it can be done. I did question your claim that we know it will certainly be easier to convert the car to run effectlively on ovals.
I just don't think we know that yet.
My statement was NOT made "without any study so far", it was made based on logic, common sense, more knowledge than you evidently possess, and (more importantly) the undeniable FACT that numerous people who would know FAR better than you or even Hoop (you know, the actual DESIGNERS OF THE CAR) have stated repeatedly that the DP01 was designed with ovals in mind. All of your negative insinuations and bluster will do nothing to change that. The IRL car, OTOH, was NOT designed to run on road courses (another pesky FACT), and required a LOT of EXPENSIVE modification to do so.
The suspension rockers need revising, (they are just a little thin in some areas), this isn't a big deal as its a machined part, and can be easily re-made.Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Right now, the DP01 is being tested for weak points ( god knows Sebring will do that to any race car, that place is a motocross track in spots) and they will fix it. I am sure the oval packages are on the drawing board and ready to be fitted to a test car when the time comes.
Grunge is right, I remember the IRL cars were NOT originally specced to run road courses, and while they do a good job now, the original packages and parts didn't work that well. A Timing and Scoring friend told me that he heard when they first tested at Mid-Ohio, the IRL car was hard pressed to get close to the lap times of an Atlantic. We know now that the car is much improved for road course racing. IF Barnhardt asked Panoz tomorrow for an order 2 seasons for now for an IRL DP-01, Iam sure the car would be ready by the end of this year if not sooner...
With CAD, making changes and planning ahead for different rules is part of the design process, and as it was said, CC likely told Panoz that an Oval package had to be at least thought about.....
The only problem that is of genuine concern down the road is the front of the sidepods are an intregal part of the tub. That part that gets hit first by the front tires and related parts when they fold back in a crash. This area was easily removable and replaceable on the Lola. Hope their is some sort of repair that will work at the track in the works besides sending the tub back.
I suspect the boys at Panoz have already thought of this or are being told of this....