What made A better than B?Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
But despite that, the championships then and now are incomparable.
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What made A better than B?Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
But despite that, the championships then and now are incomparable.
Better competition, more competitive drivers and cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
In Gr.B in could be 5 and 10 min between the places at finish, the cars was awesome, like todays Rally1, but Gr.A was much better if you like competition.
I'm old enough to remember Gr.B, but for me Gr.A has a much higher star in hindsight.
Times are changing, maybe a manufacturerbased championship is dead? Not just rally, all motorsports.
It ends up being like Formula, teams running cars with some support from a manufacturer, but they are not involved in a big manner.
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WRC1 would probably be dead as a Manufacturer-based Championship years ago, if it wasn't for one man... Akio Toyoda.
As boss of Toyota, and a massive rally fan, he single-handedly brought Toyota back into top level rallying. This was just in time as VW pulled out, and within a couple of years so did Citroen.
Toyoda has kept his firm in WRC and this has been crucial to keeping the Championship going in the last 8 years. Without his enthusiasm for the sport they wouldnt be here. With just Hyundai and M-Sport left it just wouldnt be viable.
Hopefully the FIA / Promoter listens carefully to what Toyoda-San says.on the best direction for the future of our sport at WRC level.
Right next to the leak there will certainly be more than 4% of hydrogen. The volume around the leak that contains more than 4% will depend on the rate of release and wind speed. There are equations in EN IEC 60079-10 that can be used to calculate the hazardous volume. If that volume extends to a source of ignition (a spark of more than 0.02mJ or a hot enough surface) there will be an ignition. A small leak into the open from a car wouldn't be a problem. A leak into the passenger compartment would be more dangerous. Switches or instruments could be an ignition source. A ruptured gas tank would almost certainly ignite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
In any case the Hyundai proposal is for hydrogen fuel cell powered re-charging stations (not hydrogen powered cars) so they'd be loacated in a re-fuelling area with appropriate precautions.
The wet dream of many here may come true
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-2...lly2-overhaul/
fia will screw rally2 too, i can fell it alreadyQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Even £400k is too much for a sustainable championship. Half that at best.
What’s the cost cap for WEC? The price will always be more expensive once it’s outside the track, question is, do they get a return on their investment, atm the answer is no.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
And again those costs. Why would once a very popular sport need to be ''so cheap'' that you all think it would attract more of everything? Why don't then all manufacturers rather being involved in lower series, I don't see them in WRC2, WRC3, or JWRC, then in ERC, ARC, or even national championships (those national stickers are being there more or less just to fund some things)... BECAUSE it's the world championship. It needs to be the pinnacle of the sport and some stuff can be priced more. And brands will invest no matter the amount they want. As long as the exposure and showcase what they can do, win something, or the story. Why the hell do some brands in completely different series even compete if they don't score any points at all across the seasons? And I'm sure they spend freaking more than just a season in WRC. Why then you read that some bosses, engineers, staff members get incredible amounts and still being nothing special. The costs isn't all, it's more or less technology and the things they can sell to the world. Rather of focusing too much on this,it should focus more what could each brand show, can survive through tough events and of course battles.
Recent Hyundai rumors of them leaving keep something in my mind. Before they entered the WRC (again), they were a rather regular brand, nothing special. Now they are pretty much up there in the leaderboard of selling their products. I noticed they were present in many other events, football, movies/series,... And I think it helped them get worldwide exposure in investing so much and being part of WRC for so long to get where they are now. But keep wondering if they are making a big mistake of leaving... Right now they are focusing mostly on SUVs and EVs and we see that those are sinking the fastest. Hope they don't end up like Subaru, Mitsubishi, or even Lancia with nothing much to offer anymore.
Oh yeah. And those Rally2 cars. No new cars aren't being built... Recent one is Yaris and Fabia. Hyundai doesn't have an intention to support their challenger anymore because the car will be discontinued, Citroen's car is an older model of C3, and Fiesta is discontinued already. VW shut down motorsport department, so we know we won't see them rather sooner than later, Peugeot, well their car is so long now it probably will not be revived, Proton (I don't even count them, because was a small project and nothing much known about them). In a few years, we will only see Skoda and Toyota on the grid (and even that is, IF). So wh don't tweak it, so the brands would get a motivation to making new ones or at least making them further.
you are missing the point, mate. wrc needs cheaper cars because right now we have SIX full time entries per event! (plus 2 'wild cards' from manufacturers). manufacturers are NOT INTERESTED in rallying because theres no proper return of investment, so we NEED privateers that are doing it because they love rallying. that should be simple. manufacturers are NOT interested, so should we keep a 6 car championship OR move to a cheaper thing to allow more entries and more passionate people and more stories to be around?
and sorry, but no, hyundai did not grew to be the 3rd biggest car brand on the planet because wrc gave them more exposure (or something like that), sorry. this is non-sense. i imagine hamilton winning 7 consecutive titles in f1 helped mercedes to grow a liiiiittle bit to the ('sporting') public eye. other than that, NAH, no way.
Yep. Spaceframe chassis for private teams to clothe isnt what rallying is for. You need road car relevance and who is going to determine which road car the skin is based on ?Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
i think that even if they choose to keep road based cars with the general upgrades on the safety structure, engines, aero etc (just like nowadays), they will have to move into SUVs because this is where the market is heading anyway. i also have a weird feeling that they may come up with some sort of 'spec' car for this rally2 class, like having msport being the official builder of these generic cars that may or may not looks like a Puma. i see this SPEC-cification in rallycross and i started wondering how long until it reaches rally2. spec classes are normally cheaper, which is good, and teams will get to different adjustments, but...eh... idkQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Which market? Going down the SUV route would be suicide - No other major series use them. Time for revolution/ re-think, and use another type of road car........Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
Rallycross is dying a death, Extreme E is at death's door - and the WRC isn't doing much better. Off-road motorsport is in serious trouble - and needs another direction.
You want to use road cars for what you call off-road motorsport?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
but if rally2 dont become SUV (road based or space frame, whatever) the only option left is doing like OMSE is doing in rallycross with the FC2 car. we'd probably get msport doing it...? a cheap decent car, that doesnt look like any actual road model but if ford wants to glue a sticker with the broncos grill and front lights, they can. (like dallara is doing in extreme-e too). cant see other options for rally2 right now if theres changes coming to '27Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
ps: i confess i dont HATE these omse rx cars called fc1-x.
https://youtu.be/auum3ND-gcE?feature=shared
i mean, rallying cannot go full ev yet probably, but the idea of "well, the top class teams gotta buy this machine and thats it. if u get KIA or LANCIA to pay for a different nose sticker, fine! if no, just run the spec car. but at the same time i find spec cars kinda "souless". rallying fans would not accept that
But we need spaceframe cars to bring the manufacturers in, like Rally1 (lol)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Being more serious though, this time there is a real problem to solve. Maybe not quite yet but probably from 2030 onwards there will not be any more small petrol cars on which to base a rally car. Not only for Rally1&2 but for the more junior categories too. So we'll either have to go spaceframe, but that still leaves the question as to whether manufacturers are going to want to promote ICE vehicles in this way or go with proper cars but with an electric powertrain.
Possibly more than any other motorsport, rallying really does face an existential crisis and if we want it to continue we might have to accept a radical change about
What it is.
Seems hybrid not full EV is now the future for many manufacturers...
https://www.techradar.com/vehicle-te...hanging-course
im starting to think i wouldnt mind seeing my favorite class R5s going to something like this in the new cycle of rules:
- a 'spec' car built by one company (or two companies sharing the same blueprints? i think btcc does that for engines with neil brown and toca?), simple 4 (maybe 3??) cyl engines on synth fuel, tube frame cars, cheap, just that one (or two?) brand producing the general parts but with interested manufacturers being allowed to build different front bumpers to look more like their cars and allowing teams to develop some things too - as long as its under some joker strategy to avoid costs skyrocketing
this is a new rallycross idea that started this year in europe and in america. i thought i'd hate that but its been really interesting to watch the progress. i agree that its kinda "souless", but eh, its cheaper and its a simple "race car" focused on racing, not brand marketing. i know we need manufacturer money in motorsport, but im not sure rallying is in a good position for that right now, so it could be interesting to get a cheap thing focused on passionated people (privateers, small teams, etc) wanting to race on a top national/international class.
you cant use THIS ONE for rallying but im just suggesting the general ideia. thoughts? (this is more about next R5 class, not Rally1.)
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/AqXOcluzkNQ
Of course, we all knew they all would start crying... It's a matter of time when they will start taking u-turn on SUVs too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Not happening in the foreseeable future.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
in brasil the stock car championship said they were going to use SUVs starting next year. that got mitsubishi interested. they are joining chevy and toyota, which is good for them. but i saw the chevy SUV for the championshipQuote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
i still dont think this is a SUV haha this is what i THINK english speakers would call it a "Wagon"?
https://motorsport.uol.com.br/stockc...2025/10638375/
and weirdly v8sc said this is probably the idea for them too in the next cycle
when nascar showed their electric prototype, it was on a thing that i cannot call it "SUV", its a wagon in my eyes too
https://www.nascar.com/gallery/a-clo...ctric-vehicle/
idk when I think of "SUVs" in racing i imagine this is the closest thing, and it doesnt bother me thaaat much
https://ml25zovx7n56.i.optimole.com/..._23-scaled.jpg
Using a hot-hatchback the basis for a WRC rally car sadly has to end as they are a dying breed.The 'crossover' has to be the best we can hope for as the SUVs are just too tall for nimble handling.
Guessing reffering back to C-Segment class isn't the way forward is it? Since they're slowly but surely killing those off too sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
That's why spaceframe is for, right? To build whatever they want. I mean, are there actually regulations where they dictate that cars need to be B-Segment or whatever? And if it's open, why the hell do all brands use this as platform? Historically no matter the shape of a vehicle, it can be fast no matter size, or suspension travel (like they don't lift them up like some sort of SUVs for gravel events).
Yes suspension of current cars are jacked up for rough gravel events, but their body and roofline is still quite low, helping the centre of gravity. The whole USP of the suv is a high driving position so taller body. But the Sports part of SUV is a complete misnomer.
And the problem with using a spaceframe is it hasn't attracted any new Manufacturers to Rally1.
No the B segment isn't dictated by the regulations but by physics.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Historically the size of the car was always important, every "big" car that has won a lot has a clear explanation attached to it, be it an innovation, shortcomings of the more compact cars of rivals or a pure lack of competition that used more suitable sized cars.
Also keep in mind that even the "big" cars like first gen Imprezas and early Evos were just around 4,4m. A properly big car hasn't been successful consistently in normal rallying ever since the sport was fully focused on special stages.
So that's why Suzuki and Mini failed, right? And what about that Puma right now? If a private team could do it, why Hyundai is hesitating and others?
I keep wondering if there is any right formula to suit most if not all brands, who could sell their name in the series in these times. I'm not worried at all if the cars would be slower, just want it would be more interests, because still think it is the right place to show a new tech, and brand and have a better challenge than track racing. Is it more engines, segments, powertrains, events (I mean the right ones - those who are crucial to their marketing aspect), and more talented drivers, so they could have at least one title contender (right now if you put every top guy in one team, we could have at least 6 teams, counting Ogier also, because he isn't losing his mojo at all, few years back, there was maybe one or two realistically for the title).
Should the formula be to go back completely like stock cars, not so much aero, similar to Gr.A...
I think that right now even the manufacturers don't know what their future is, many of them are confused about going all EV and not going EV, or is it too soon... And waiting for FIA, what they even want to have isn't helping. Really don't know why they take it so long to decide what the future and long-term will be. And realistically even if they decide the next cycle of rules, who of new brands could enter in such a short time and be ready? So FIA will screw everything if not published in a short time.
What I'm really impressed is how that the event organizers (countries) have so much interest for hosting a round in a calendar with so little interest from all other aspects.
Just having the right concept doesn't make your car a winner automatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
Just look at the first gen Mazda 323 4WD. All the right ingredients, the first modern Group A car, only the Delta was comparable in concept whereas all the others lacked this or that and brought compromised cars to the party in 1986. Yet one of the two dominated the era, the other won a single event with a serious entry list.
Also the Puma is roughly the same size (and wheelbase) as the other two.
i KNOW most of racing fans HATE electric cars and SUVs - and combining both its just a nightmare - but thinking about all the politicial BS that exist behind motorsports, do you think "SOMETHING LIKE THIS" (not THIS CAR) is the eventual future for WRC? i would like to hear your thoughts on that - but please, if you are only going to say that you hate evs and this is a joke, just... move on. haha give me some usefull thoughts on how "something like this" could be wrc's eventual future OR NOT, based on all the "after 2030" greenwashing, with countries choosing carefully what they are going to financially support when it comes to events, for example, or stuff like "what manufacturers want to look like in motorsport after 2030".
some deep thoughts please! haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQalDigk2-c
interesting to hear Tanner saying stuff like "we are in a weird era of motorsport because its cheaper for manufacturers to 'make content' instead of race on a track"
craaaaazy, tho its true. never thought of that in that way, jezzz
Rant on the spaceframe idea:
Starts 6 mins in...
https://youtu.be/eAP1EdWhBrs?si=js8f0FGkuE2ht_vN
Why's he asking the manufacturers what they want for Rally2? Ask the participants - the customers know best. If that turns out to be a side-by-side then so be it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
But also why he assuming they're not speaking to manufacturers because the answer isn't positive and hasn't resulted in great deal of pr speculation, Lancia aside. Maybe nobody is interested?
Edit: Ah it's because he wants Rally2 to be the top class. Yawn. So let me ask, I thought this thread was just for fun. I'm not under the impression the 2027 plan for slower Rally1.5, tuners etc, got scrapped by the FIA. I thought just the immediate scrapping of hybrid and the Rally 2+ for 25/26. What's going on?
The potential problem in future with Rally2 is that it is based on homologation in GpA. If manufacturers lose interest in going through the homologation process then you don't have a base car to work with. Once you've got that base car you need to fabricate most of a space frame inside it to provide rollover protection and bodyshell strengthening. Moving to a space frame formula might give more opportunities for more developers outside of the manufacturers to produce Rally2 cars. It all depends on how the regulations are drafted and how the base car is selected and prepared.
I don't think that many or any privateer would be interested in building a Rally2 car. I understand that he just want a base for next set of regulations should be something similar to Rally2. I mean why not, it's proven, it's safe and it's significantly lower in costs than Rally1 base. Still they could ramp up some performance aspect to be a pinnacle of the sport and not hurting Rally2 formula. And asking potential builders/manufacturers isn't a bad idea at all. Assuming that they would be interested and then actually not giving a fu*k is worse than listening to their wishes. They would build them for years and not one-off and that also would mean they have a little word in it and could showcase their best.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
if we could get (somebody like) msport and prodrive to share the building of a simple engine (NOT hybrid, because the focus is on the privateers and smaller teams) / space frame spec car that doenst look like any specific road car (i mean, cmoon, is not like we have that many different shapes anymore on our roads) and sell it for a controled cheap price... isnt that cheaper in the end? rallycross is going for spec tube frame cars all over the place (extreme-e, titans, rx lites, rx2e, evo, fc1x). in these examples, its way cheaper to get new parts too, since its all coming from 'one' place.
if skoda, subaru, toyota, chinese brands, peugeot wants to participate, then they just gotta produce the front bumpers with their road-based design (headlights and front grill). i THINK im shifting to this view tbh. you can keep this rule for 10 years because its just a matter of "upgrades" on the safety cell and tweeks on the aerokit(body shell) each 2 or 3 years - IF the costumer wants.
no? why this doesnt seem a bad idea in my mind? what am i missing here?
Colin Clark on WRC future..(greek subs because interviewed on greek channel).
https://youtu.be/ODhkwlgmjL4?si=_SXM2oBtNGe2h0LQ
Sounds like you want to increase the cost of banger racing to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by saco0o
Let Rallycross/off-road racers do what they want. They don't have to be road legal, they drive in a circle of about 200m and there's nothing for manufacturers to get behind. Unless they want to race actual production road cars there's no need for them to pretend to be driving one.
I agree it is a good idea. But pretending that the FIA with its manufacturers commission, and the Promoter with its survival hanging on the need for manufacturers, aren't speaking to them is a tad naïve/ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by deephouse
What does make you sure, they are doing that? Their actions in recent times do quite the opposite. The guy in the video is right about them being nowhere. Again if action would speak, we would not be having this conversation right now. And where we are right now. Nowhere. It's completely blank.. The teams should start doing the 2027 project yesterday and probably will be next year somewhere around this date if they will go on like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Spaceframe may be a good idea if put under strict price cap and combined with road derived ICE (again price capped). Use power to weight for BoP and go from there.