So basically, almost 3 months later, Dirtfish comes out with (pretty much) the same thing: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/full-...f-wrc-latvala/Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
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So basically, almost 3 months later, Dirtfish comes out with (pretty much) the same thing: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/full-...f-wrc-latvala/Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaBU...ture=emb_title
I liked the Hydrogen car.
I understand that to run a Hydrogen car takes something like "one extra step" (as a whole) when compared to an electric car but hey, whatever. I give up on the "lets be logical". If it works and brands support the idea, do it. Just leave some room for privateers to run petrol cars if they are cheaper
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
That's the problem.
The only big brand pushing hydrogen these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.
I belive that hyundai is developing hydrogen technology as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by mknight
https://mobile.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/nexo
Scientists in Belgium already found a solution: Belgian Researchers Develop a Solar Panel that Produces Hydrogen.Quote:
Originally Posted by flat_right
https://solhyd.org/wp-content/upload...-transfarm.jpg
In this case, photovoltaic panels produce electricity that splits the water molecule into two parts: hydrogen on one side, oxygen that goes back into the atmosphere. As for hydrogen, it can be stored and reused as electricity via a fuel cell. The panel produces an average of 250 liters of hydrogen per day. https://hydrogen-central.com/belgian...uces-hydrogen/
The big problem with Hydrogen is the pressure: stations dispense hydrogen as a compressed gas at pressures of 10,000 psi (H70) for light-duty vehicles and 5,000 psi (H35) for all other vehicles. This pressure is maintained once dispensed to the car. This will create huge security concerns. Some time ago a Hydrogen station in the Nordics was blown up. And that high pressure at the stations will make filling up your hydrogen car way less practical and time consuming because after each fill the pressure needs to be built up for the next customer ...
But I agree that Hydrogen is way better than electricty because the precious metals needed for electric cars are even more scare and Geo political related compared with oil. My best guess for 2025 is that F1 aims to unveil the new Formula 1 engine – the second-generation hybrid power unit – which will be carbon neutral and powered by a drop-in advanced sustainable fuel.
There are other short term options as well such as the fuel used in WEC. Apparently made by some bacteria from remains of grapes after making wine. https://competition.totalenergies.co...ergies-and-wec
Also they will have a hydrogen class at Le Mans but it has been delayed.
I'm also skeptical of batteries due to the raw materials, manufacturing process, lifespan and disposal.
Nothing of that has any relevance for their use in rallying.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Firesafety (managable cause unlike petrol or hydrogen they don't "explode") and sound (managable but can be "alien") are the only relevant issues.
True but they do have relevance for roadcars which is I suppose why the manufacturers insist on having electrificaton in motorsport. If it were up to me I'd make some category with big loud internal combustion engines using those carbon neutral fuels just for the show. The manufacturers can go to formula E if they want electrification.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
imo there are two ways for WRC
- "Big, loud and popular". If WRC is popular enough it doesn't matter much to manus what technology it uses relative to their roadcars. (writing this just as I read that Audi announced they go to F1).
Problem is that right now WRC is not popular enough and last time it was this big relative to other motorsports was in Group B times and partly in WRC 2000-2005. Various people have been trying to change this for long time, so by now I doubt it will succeed. 2017 WRC rules have been a "Group B revival" effort and while we had epic competition for 3 years in long term I dunno if I want to call them a success.
If I try not to be too negative maybe using "new media" might help. "Drive to survive" really boosted F1 popularity a lot for example. You might say that the rise of online-videos and onboards contributed a lot to WRC popularity in 2000-2005.
- "Similar to roadcars". This has also worked before. For manus like Subaru and Mitsubishi it really boosted their standings outside Japan in 1990s. In this case "similar to roadcars" these days means going EV.
I think most people would agree that current hybrid rules are an effort to be something in between and are at best a stopgap measure.
Was it mentioned that Toyota Yaris Hydrogen prototype in Ypres was allowed to run for not more than 20 km at once. It was brought to the stage starts on a trailer, and driven onto another trailer at the finish. And it was had to be taken to Bruxelles for refueling. I see right now more challenges with this stuff than with electric cars. But having the traditional engine there is obviously good for rallying.
Well the thing is a prototype, in Paris there are hydrogen taxis from Toyota (fuel cell though). So apart from the missing infrastructure it's not "challenging", manufacturers were running ICE's with hydrogen for years allready.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yes but at the same time I used to think the F1 Hybrid engines were just stupid... Until I saw a really cool video on youtube explaining it. Nothing new per se, I just never got interested tbh. Now I think its just an amazing engine!Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Tho Im still not there yet with the WRC Hybrids. Just "meh" so far. But who knows...
Even Formula One, an intensely political sport (=pro WEF climate narrative), knows better than to go to 100% electric in 2026. So why should the WRC?
That's why it's likely to be the future car. The only big brand pushing WRC these days is Toyota, others gave up some time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
WEC worked extremely well when Toyota was the only brand there competing with themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I presume you mean for the promoter and Toyota.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Audi announced as engine supplier for F1 from 2026 today. And here comes the twist:Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
"it will enter Formula 1 from 2026, but in reality it has already entered in the F1 world since it was called on with Porsche to discuss the rules of F1 powertrains that will come into effect in four years' time. What prompted the Germans to get into F1 was not so much the introduction of e-fuel (eliminating the fossil presence in fuels) but the ability to develop advanced electrical solutions.
The endothermic engines will lose over 150 horsepower compared to today's 6 cylinders and will be subjected to the standardization of most of the parts. The combustion engine becomes an element that weighs no more than 50% in generating performance, so that the hybrid system will make the difference."
Source: https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...esco/10358080/
That is an interesting quote. That means that Hyundai and Ford cannot be considered "big brands" or "gave up some time ago"?Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Hmmm well, maybe. But FIA has an exclusivity contract with Formula E for electric open wheel championship until 2039, I think. So maaaybe theres this factor too. And eléctrics are "not there yet" too. Cant race for almost 2h at 300kmh... YetQuote:
Originally Posted by MentalParadox
Red Bull Sports! There seems to be a lot going on lately. Rumour is that 78 year old founder Dietrich Mateschitz is very sick (see https://sportnieuws.nl/formule-1/toe...-is-vrij-ziek/). When Mateschitz finally will disappear, all his shares of Red Bull Company will probably be transfered to the Thai mother company. That will create a lot insecurity for the Red Bull Sports branch, especially for WRC where the majority of the Rally 1 drivers are sponsored by Red Bull and M-Sport might be in serious trouble too ...
What r your opinions on "Swappable batteries?"
I mean... Formula E run them for 45 min straight, cant WRC run them for 3 or 4 stages and then swap batteries in a choosen location? Its relatvly "easy" to do. These guys did in less than 2 minutes, check it out
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29LGfllk5Qo
Thought for the day - when did everybody last physically see somebody drinking a Red Bull?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergiow
eurobasket 2022 every bar (also with "organics by redbull" new brand replacing coca cola) - yesterday night - milanQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
music festival same way with organics - last weekend - italy
world downhill championship - tv (france) - some days ago
I regularly have one like once a month but do not look in the mirror…Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Hmmm not sure where to post this, but since this is "ABOUT THE FUTURE OF MOTORSPORT............" ?
The new hybrid BMW suv literally used the Extreme-E (with the BMW front nose) SUV for the propaganda...
Not sure what that means... if they are about to join Extreme-E or what, but, if this is it, meeh..
Another Manufacturer choosing OTHER sport to join =/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1tmzvmxJnw
Robert Reid: “One of the problems we have at the moment is the OEMs don’t know what they want."
(Talking about the new rules for '25)
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-7...c-regulations/
haha What a joke. At this point they should just say "Look, wrc is kinda pointless for us at this point. We get more exposure doing Dakar, the 24h Le Mans and some cool clips on youtube, so... Bye"
So basically, more news without any news. I think last week in Autosport they said that 70% of the 2025 regulations were ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
DirtFish got really bad, posting 3 news per week.... and 857 different articles about these 3 weekly newsQuote:
Originally Posted by Eli
To be honest, it's a pretty damning indictment on the sport. History tells us whatever they decide is likely to be the wrong decision. However, if they have half a brain, they'll realise they need extra manufacturers. The current number isn't good enough.....Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
DF don't set the regs, at least I'm grateful for the progress report of where the FIA thoughts are at.
Not according to Reid!Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Although at least he wasn't comparing makes in Rally2, not helpful because you cannot have makes in Rally1. There is only one comparable manufacturer in WRC2 and it gets in free due to Rally1.
Dont think we need more manufacturers. We need to have teams running year-old cars, like ProDrive running 2 '2022 i20s" and PetterSolberg running a team with 2 "2022 yaris" and Prokop running a team with 2 '2022 Pumas".
And Msport renting more cars like crazy... Tho Im not sure thats happening because FINANCIAL or IRRELEVANCE (lack of interest in nowadays wrc)
Well, no... New brands are needed for yesterday, which doesn't mean that private ones aren't necessary either.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/colin...c-thrill-ride/
hahahah Colin Clark and the Ford SUPER VAN! THATS IT! "THE FUTURE IS HERE" hahaha
jokes aside, it looks fun.
The future of the main class in wrc is rally2.
Sad? Maybe.
But i don't think the economic clima the next years makes todays rally1, or an evolution if it, sustainable.
Rally2 exists, works fine, lots of cars around, and some possibility of some local heros at rallies.
Ofcourse the team with the most money has the best car, but the difference will be less than today.
Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk
So basically a step backwards would be the future? I doubt it from the perspective of the manufacturers.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
I still would love to hear how the budget of a top team is divided. You travel to 14 rallies around the world, you employ 100 people throughout the season, including 1-2 top drivers, you own buildings, trucks etc. The cars need fuel, tyres, dampers, driveshafts etc. you need to arrange tests. There's so much cost that has nothing to do with the type of the car. The cost would be the same even if you were running Rally5 cars. How much cheaper would it be with Rally2 cars? If the budget is now 100 million, would it be 80 million? 60 million? Would it make a difference for a manufacturer to enter the series?
The cost difference for a privateer is unquestionable. But it's a different question whether any privateer should be able to start with a top class car or not. Or what kind of problems it causes for following the rally or televising a stage if 50 cars could win the stage.
Then we start talking about Rally2+ and it's a totally another thing, when we start adding power to the Rally2 cars in which drivers frequently get serious injuries (just check what happened in ERC this season). I would also question how the drivetrains, brakes etc. would withstand the added power.
Maybe the sweet spot would be a Rally2 base car with added power, aero, durability element, safety element and some sort of light hybrid element. It would be more expensive than a normal Rally2, but not nearly as expensive as Rally1. But again another question for the manufacturers, would they have a fitting car for this class (in Rally1 you can scale any car for smaller size)
whatever happens, happens. I don't think Toyota will accept full electric, so the WRC might go hybrid until 2030 or 2029 or whatever. If the organisers screw it up and we go to Rally2 then so be it, on the bright side we will have a much more equal playing field and some proper battles.Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
We don't have proper battles now? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
hehe we do, but you know what I mean, even if it goes to Rally2 or Rally2+ or whatever we will still have good rallies, maybe even better with more top level cars :)Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as a Norwegian you won't legally be able to buy these ICE cars come Monte of 2025. How is that the economically sustainable decision for the manufacturers to make?Quote:
Originally Posted by skarderud
Fabia Mk1, Polo, DS3, C3, 208, Fiesta Mk1, i20 Mk1, Iriz all extinct before the first season of the new regs finish.
Fabia Mk2, Fiesta Mk2 too within 3 year cycle.
How likely they get extended by the FIA wanting to push this image of a flagship motorsport competition?
Although the Fabia is being renewed, Skoda can't even be fckd with entering. Maybe they will do.
Ford cannot renew the Fiesta and need a new car. Maybe moot, as Ford said would pull support without hybrid anyway.
Toyota bringing one at least.
Plus i20 N = 3 cars but not the ones 'everybody' has.
No names of new manufacturers this attracts, zero gain.