It was a crowded and physical race. The very wide track makes the circuit a delight to race and watch.
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It was a crowded and physical race. The very wide track makes the circuit a delight to race and watch.
Sochi next. That is a Bottas track. I think he wins that race
He has to, he is not looking good at the moment. two consecutive ordinary race weekends soon get people talking.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
YupQuote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
It's not likely politically correct to ask , but was there a breach of podium protocol committed when Lewis wore his "arrest the cops" t-shirt on the podium during the ceremony ?
I noticed he took it off for the pictures afterwards .
[CANCELLED]Congratulations to Russell for his first F1 point. He should buy Leclerc a pint because Leclerc passing Raikonen, sapped alot of time from the Fin, gifting Russell 10th place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I doubt there is. But it looked very rebellious. I am sure he has got people talking in the paddock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I hope Imola and Portamio produce the same outcome, as no driver on the current grid; maybe except Kimi, has driven any of these tracks.
Nurburgring would be epic l think. I am really looking forward to that one.
Indeed incredible. Driving a car that is 2 seconds a lap faster than any other and still winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
A normally happier after a victory Toto was shown in the crowd not smiling while the anthems were playing .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
And , a short while later he took it off .
I understand the message , but the podium has never been a place where any kind of political message has been allowed .
Lewis has done a lot to put this movement forward , and F1 responded with a moment for the cause before every race .
In my opinion , and , I believe , the rules , taking it onto the podium , a sacred place , is going too far .
It would look horrible to sanction him , but it deserves some attention , as it could set a dangerous precedent for future podia .
Ehm, Russell didn't score a point, he finished in 11th. Also, Leclerc didn't pass Kimi on track, he only finished ahead of him due to Kimi's penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
In F1, l understand political statements has rarely taken place on the podium. But this is not unusual in sport. It may be hard to see this happening but the impetus for him to do this is a real and difficult problem. Below is a sky news video of a young lad sitting peacefully in police costody being attacked for no reason. He was not resistant or abusive. The police officer just launched into him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
https://news.sky.com/video/black-liv...nager-12066151
You might find what Hamilton is doing problematic but the message that he is alerting us about is more problematic and real and happens regularly without sanction.
Besides, this is a peaceful call for action to clamp down on this problem. If we don't heed this peacefull call for action, then the next level may not be to anyones liking.
More white people are killed by police in America every year than black people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
The video here shows no context about what happened. Just like with scumbag Floyd, a man that once held a loaded gun to a pregnant woman’s stomach. The only reason this is gaining traction now is because the DNC is provoking it through their control of the media. These stories are always provided with the racist narrative to provoke emotional reactions from people and then when the real story is leaked the media ignores it, just like they ignored the leaked footage of George Floyd where the police officers clearly tried everything they could to peacefully put him in the car, or the autopsy results. Or more importantly the testimony that Bill Clinton visited Paedo island with Epstein and was there with two young girls from New York.
Nearly all the stories I’ve read like this turn out to be different to what is initially reported when provided the correct context, and when the truth finally does come out, I’ve never seen the media report on it to the extent that they correct the narrative. Don’t blindly believe what you read in the MSM, like Lewis does.
There is a time and a place for protest .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
They made a time and place for this protest .
As I understand it , political statements are absolutely not allowed on the podium , at least according to the previous Concorde agreement , and teams and countries have been fined heavily for it .
I made no comment about the actual statement .
Protest by its very nature is meant to disrupt the status quo and provoke conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
The problem with designating "a time and place" for it, is that folks tune out and don't get to consider the issue.
ESPN used to show the moment of silence and campaign before the race, but lately they just cut to commercials and come back right as they are already in their cars, thus negating the impact.
One can react 3 ways to the valid protest that Hamilton is trying to raise awareness of.
1. Ask questions, try and understand why there is a need for this protest, and understand the real issue at hand
2. Be annoyed, complain about the inconvenience of having to be subjected to a troubling reality for many people who look just like him who are murdered/shot.abused week after week with no justice in sight...which prompted the entire protest in the first place.
3. Be triggered and completely misunderstand what is actually going on and actively try and be an antagonist or actually be heartless enough to consider themselves in line with that kind of oppression, systemic abuse and racism.
Everyone who cares and has a platform is doing their part to raise awareness and shake people out of the comfort of "it is not my problem, I just want to watch sports" mentality.
Naomi Osaka showed true conviction in her peaceful protest at the US Open and life as we know it hasn't ended, we are now just a bit more aware of the systemic abuses whether we acknowledge it or not, even if it makes certain people uncomfortable and unable to continue denying that these issues exist.
The NBA, NASCAR, IndyCar, NFL, EPL and many other leagues have significant accommodations to allow peaceful protest so seeing Hamilton wear a t-shirt that asks for a singular and particular action to be taken against a real travesty of justice should not be offensive.
I also think labeling it political is a mistake. This isn't a political issue for or against a particular political entity or system of government, it is a humanity issue and asking for justice in a particular incident. I honestly believe some folks would have an issue no matter what he did even if he had a t-shirt saying stop (or convict the perpetrators of) child-abuse, rape, slavery or murder.
I implore you not to be triggered but to actually use it as an opportunity to understand why there is a need to highlight that and confront why you feel that way about the situation. We are all mature enough to be able to watch a race and think about things as well. If you can get bombarded by commercials then you can deal with this too. At the very worst, just observe and be empathetic without the need to make it about your discomfort or protocols of decorum were broken (designed not to offend the commercial interests rather than any ethical reason)
See that a peaceful and respectful protest on a huge platform is a good thing and should be commended.
He still drives phenomenally and puts on a good show, displays ultimate professionalism and stays out of trouble. Is well paid and lives a good life but still feels compelled to help seek justice. So a few moments of dignified protest shouldn't bother you but be applauded. Its not political, it's humane.
And that is all I'll say about this.
Russel finished 11th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
This is not whether the protest "bothered" anyone .Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
It is wholly about whether it is allowed in the regulations .
I believe it is not .
I was disappointed to find out later but could not log back in to amend my post. I thought he would be able to make it within Kimi's 5 sec penalty but somehow did not. Maybe next time eh!Quote:
Originally Posted by gm99
Bagwan, you are coming across as someone who is nonchalant to this pressing issue of resolving racial brutality to people of colour. The regulations is not that important in the face of these humanity deficiencies. It doesn't affect you or anyone you know hence l understand you cannot relate to it on a personal level. But you must make allowance for it on a humanitarian level and place you or your children in that position. And imagine how you would feel. If can feel that it is alright for you to personally be subjected to racial brutality, then ok, you have a point. Otherwise, please just bear the moment as it takes you out of your comfort zone for only a short while.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I am not sure how to reply to your post. It is surprising to say the least. This is the sort of thing that Germans were saying to themselves while millions of Jews where being systematically gassed to death enmass. There were statements like "Rubbish, nothing of the sort is going on".Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
You demonstrate the very problem that people of colour are fighting against; politically correct racism. You would not called them Niggers to their face, you would just marginalize their issues and ignore their suffering. George Floyd did not have a knife in his hand as the Police officer kneeled on his windpipe, did he? WTF are talking about?
What an eloquent piece you have written. I could not write it better for the sake of my anger at the surprising display of indifference to the difficulties facing a vast number of people that we share this planet with. That we share our nations, cities and streets with. It is just a surprising show of inhumane sentiment that demonstrates where the sort of mentalities that brought about human conflicts in antiquity originated from. With the information and higher knowledge available to us in this day and age, we should know better and care better for our fellow human beings, but many don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Hence, l commend you highly for your lovely post.
You are correct Baggie!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I think "The Boss" knew he would likely get a fine and thought that the action was good on balance.Quote:
the FIA has launched an investigation into Hamilton's shirt. Drivers and teams are not allowed to make political statements on the circuit. If the text can indeed be seen as a political statement, the 35-year-old Briton will in all likelihood receive a fine.
Skip
You are making assumptions about me that are absolutely baseless .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
If you read the post you quoted again , perhaps you'll see that I , clearly , made no comment on his words , but only on the regulations .
You , Nitrodaze , are coming across as someone who is calling me out as a racist .
The FIA is investigating the action , so we'll see if they will regard it as a breach of podium protocol or not .
You could be right , Taz , but Toto's face maybe changed his mind .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
The pictures afterward had no protest shirt in them .
:stareup: I think he already made his point! :idea: ;)
But , the point is , that he had already made his point plainly and clearly in the designated part of the program .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
It's a pointy issue .
Ok................. He punctuated his point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dork: :sailor: :wave:!!!!!!!!!
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
I just calmed myself down and wrote that in hopes to enlighten a few around here.
some of our forum members, as you rightfully pointed out, seem more than willing to be dismissive or worse yet buy into some weird and disturbing narrative of things, which, frankly i have no more time for anymore. a few have gotten on my ignore list as it doesn't seem worth my time to engage them anymore, but a few others, like Bagwan, who i respect, am more than willing to have a civil discussion. I understand his query as to regs, and just wanted to make the point about protest in general and our reactions. Even if the FIA levy a fine, it is still worth it and definitely worth the attention it has brought. He would gladly pay whatever fine they impose...if they are shortsighted and myopic enough to impose one, instantly become the villains in this story and a looming PR disaster, then I'm sure mercedes will have his back as well as millions of others. Let the FIA reveal what Ferrari did or did not do, before they go after Hamilton for any kind of breach of decorum. Who exactly did he offend? which political party, government, country, or ethnicity did he besmirch? surely not the police, because if they are offended by the call to arrest officers who broke into the wrong house and gunned down a woman in her bed for an alleged "drug raid" then proceed to lie, obfuscate and protect those killers, then those folks should not be surprised that the public is outraged and refuse to let it go.
But back to Racing hopefully and perhaps the 2 week break will do all of us some good, and allow others to now take the time to find out why the protest happened.
:)
Yup!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
and Autosport gets it. Read point #9
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...can-grand-prix
All they said was that he remains the most vocal and most visible supporter of the BLM movement .Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
That is true , but has no bearing on whether he is allowed to display his message on the podium .
If you accepted that Hamilton was sanctioned for entering pit lane when it was closed last race because it was a clear rule broken , then why wouldn't you accept him being sanctioned for breaching podium protocol if it's a clear rule ?
The only thing that could save the situation for all involved is to deem whether it is a political message or not , as neither political nor religious messages are allowed .
But , it should be made clear that , unless the rules are changed , it shouldn't happen .
To be honest , Mr fan , I found the act to be somewhat disrespectful , as opposed to inspiring .
They have dedicated a portion of the program specifically for a display of support .
They have shown a well-produced promo multiple times during each airing specifically dedicated to the cause .
There are many signs of support all around the paddock from the FIA and all the teams .
It is far more publicity and respect for the cause than I expected from the FIA and F1 , and they should be commended .
And , so should Lewis .
Without him , most of it wouldn't have occurred .
When it is simply not allowed , the "goodness" of the message doesn't matter .
Bagwan, i still don't think you get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
I am not concerned if it is "allowed or not" and am fine with whatever punishment they want to hand out as it is worth it IMO over some regulation rule breach.
And I believe that is a calculation Hamilton quite willing fully made. Despite it being not even something for anyone to get triggered by.
Also as to the article here is a snippet of #9
"Taylor's killing by Kentucky police officers in March has become one of the most high-profile cases of police brutality amid the anti-racism protests around the world in recent months.
Hamilton wore a shirt bearing her name on the grid, and put it back on for the podium ceremony, only removing it for the champagne celebration. Taylor's face was on the rear of the t-shirt, with Hamilton turning around at the end of the national anthem for it to be picked up in full. Hamilton also ended his interview after his win by saying: "Justice for Breonna Taylor."
The gammons spouting "keep politics out of sport!" were infuriated by such a show from Hamilton, making their opposition clear on social media. But for those of us in touch with reality and the issues facing the world right now, it was another reminder from Hamilton of how he wants to use his platform and how powerful it can be."
If you find that disrespectful, then the question is to who? and why does it bother you?
Finally your last statement is actually the most troubling
dude, if we went by that way of thinking, nothing would have ever changed in the entirety of history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Many things were not allowed until they were changed due to protest and the hard work of civil disobedience.
Discrimination in all its ugly forms all over the world has been a bedrock of civilization.
There was a time when Black people were not allowed to be free and held in bondage, so that was ok?
Or not allowed to play in Major League Baseball
Or women not allowed to vote
or girls not allowed to choose to be married off as child
heck, the Irish in this country weren't allowed to apply for certain jobs in the early 20th century
Jews were not allowed any rights in 1940's Germany
and so on and so on...
What are you saying? that conformity even in the face of injustice is ok because "those are the rules?"
progress should not wait for society, instead society is always forced to catch up to progress.
That last statement really is a bit problematic
oh well
Ok. lol my final word on the matter
lets get back to a discussion on the safety car issues, which i think deserve way more of a discussion and opinions than a peaceful protest at the end of the race
can we agree on that? :)
`
At the extreme risk of having to endure another lecture , I will try to make my point .Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
If he broke the rules , they need to look at sanction .
If the sanction was worth it , then so be it .
The podium in F1 , for me , has always appeared a sacred protected place , which lauds only those who get to stand upon it .
Had they not gone to great lengths to appease his wishes , and not created a specific forum within the program , I might certainly have been more sympathetic in this case .
Even if he said he forgot to take it off for the podium ceremony I would be happier about it .
It's not about the message .
Sorry Baggie, if i thought you were a racist, l would call you one plainly. So that is not my intention. I simply find that you were noticeably outside your comfort zone enough to not care about the issue. You have not said anything that come across as racist, neighter have l implied you were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Sorry, l disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Any platform that has good exposure is fair game for vocalizing any fight against inhumane treatment of any people. It is not disrespectful at all. F1 is an international sport enjoyed by many people on the planet. It is one of the ideal platform for bringing attention to any inhumanity going on in the world. Hence should be seen as a respect rather than a disrespect.
To stiffle such expressions is to stiffle the voices of the victims of inhumane treatment. These things are disturbing to behold, very unsettling to see and disconcerting to discover the facts that lie behind the jesture.
The world responded too late going to the aid of the Jews. And millions of souls, including brilliant academics, musicians and more were wasted in gas chambers. We have an opportunity to respond more quickly, so we should, even when we are inconvinienced or taken outside our comfort zones by the peaceful call for action.
Well said!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
now about the restart procedures.
I admit that I incorrectly assigned blame to Bottas for the calamity yesterday, although I later deferred to Anthony Davidson's spot on analysis.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...-restart-crash
In reading the autopsort article, it seems very clear that the drivers at the back were totally at fault and were even briefed in the drivers meeting about the right process. Add to that the F3 guys had no problem doing it, it seems quite clear it comes down to the drivers at the back and in general who complained about gaps, when the lights went out etc.
In reading Masi's interview on the matter this is very clear and the drivers only have themselves to blame.
No need to change any procedures etc. just stubborn drivers mentality towards the restart.
more good analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEKH_LPqjJ8
George Floyds death, whilst tragic, was not intentional. If you resist arrest the Police must use force. The knee on the neck was as per their training, they did everything by the book and in death he is just being used as a pawn. I’d suggest you watch the full footage and you’ll see what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
And as for Hamilton, I suspect he’ll get away with a warning this time, but he should not be allowed break the rules a second time without severe consequences.
I am frankly sick to death of being lectured about this .Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrodaze
Perhaps you disagree with the rule that says he can't do what he did .
It would make more sense for you to say so .
It would make more sense than assuming I need a lecture on racism when you just noted in a previous post that you don't consider me a racist .
Except lift off when the man was unable to breathe.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
Except he was claiming he couldn’t breathe for 6 minutes before he was ever on the ground.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones