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Interesting. I think it completely confirms what i was saying. Verstappen was interlocking wheels with Kimi way before he was getting ran out of room by Vettel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
It's quite funny to diss Seb for doing the same thing to Max that Max was doing to Kimi, is it not?
the only one who could have avoided the accident was verstappen. even though you can't put the blame on him, he chose not to brake but crash into raikkonen.
it's every time the same story. max doesn't really causes an accident, but he's always involved.
he will have to learn to assess when to back off if he wants to win more races.
I'm sure braking in the middle of a straight when everyone else is pushing flat out is the way to avoid accidents. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
If anyone is to blame here, is Vettel - after all, he's the one who squeezed Max into a non-existent gap. But I would actually put it down as a racing incident: driving towards another driver to cut him off is the kind of maneuver that we're used to seeing all the time in starts, only that in this particular instance Sebastian hasn't realized that Kimi was there. It was a sliver of bad judgment and a lot of bad luck.
slightly letting go of the throttle would have been sufficient. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by N4D13
i agree that it is a racing incident and that nobody is really to blame, although vettel initiated it.
but i also believe that a more experienced, less aggressive driver would have avoided it by backing off a little.
Really interesting how there are so many so different opinions on the incident as if everyone watched a different one. :D
The problem with this logic is that Vettel could not see that Verstappen had nowhere to go on the left.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Knight
I think some of you blaming Seb would be calling it completely different if Seb was Lewis... and let's not forget how bad visibility can be in the wet and how quickly these things can happen in such instances.
I think the Stewards called it absolutely spot on for a change. 100% Racing incident... blaming any single driver would have been massively wrong.
On what planet was that not Kimi hitting Max?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
For starters I did not say Seb initiated contact. By "orchestrating" the accident I was referring to Seb compressing the front three with his chop to the left. It has been ruled a racing incident, which I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodasarmpit
Max had room to go straight. He was trying to cut off Kimi after Max's bad start and hit him instead.
No, Max was trying to avoid Vettel coming to the left like a torpedo.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...6eef746882.gif
If you say he avoided Vettel by driving into Kimi then you make him sound stupid which i believe he isn't. Plus he went close enough to Kimi to interlock wheels with him when Vettel was still quite a considerable distance away from him. So let's imagine if Max had stayed about 20 cms to his right, then Vettel, focusing on Max in his mirror would have:Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
A: Seen him and pulled back to the right - no accident
B: Not seen him and had contact with him - same consequence but 100% fault on Seb and possibly 10 places grid penalty for the next race.
Bro. No one can seriously blame Verstappen for that. Both Ferrari's put him in a vulnerable position.
That start was TBK wet dream come true.
I don't blame Verstappen at all. I was just pointing out his position in the incident - one that he put himself in by going too close to Kimi, not one that he was put in by Ferraris.
If you analyze both moves by Vettel and Verstappen separately then they are both completely fine and standard for a race start, but neither of them knew what the other was doing/about to do so it ended with disaster.
I must admit, after seeing this video from the overhead angle, I have to change my mind and suggest Kimi was not at fault. I would also suggest Vettel was not to blame, but probalbly triggered Max to move over - actually looked like Max clipped Kimi.Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
It was a thrilling race to watch! Good Job Hamilton!
Precisely. It's never more obvious than in that clip. This is a clear case of overthinking on the part of some posters. Yes, Verstappen veered left but only in response to Vettel shooting across like a lunatic. Mark Weber summed it up when he replied to Ferrari's post on twitter where they blamed Verstappen by stating "Said the Bloke that's never driven a go-kart". I can only assume that's the same for posters here.Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
I also agree with him at being irritated for the guys having to have even visited the Stewards
Quote:
Though the stewards eventually cleared all three men of blame, Webber was angry the drivers even needed to give an account of themselves after the race.
"It's a joke. It's done. Seb's leaving here in pieces. Ferrari's got no points. Max's has got no points. All of them have been wiped out.
"I just get frustrated is because we've had a car race, we've left the track, these boys are in the barriers, they're massively frustrated -- they're burning inside, these boys. Then they've got to sit and listen to some guy say 'well, you know, I've got a slo-mo, we've gotta do this, we've gotta do this', it's not real."
Mark Webber should become the steward. But he's too much of a flaccid penis to put his reputation on the line. Much easier to have a pop at the stewards.
The video is very clear. Kimi was in no way at fault. Max bears at least 40% of the fault because Kimi was clearly ahead of him when contact occurred. Seb gets the remaining 60% because of his over aggressive and needless move that far to his left. I wonder if Ferrari are having a private word or two with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by yodasarmpit
Max didn't hit Sebastian .
Therefore , Seb's move across to block Max , although abrupt , should be seen as legal .
Kimi was on a scorching start , having nailed the lights , and slid up past Max , who was starting to react to Vettel's move .
The moment Max could have backed out was already gone because he only seemed to notice that Kimi , having made such a fantastic start , was where he was planning to go to try to out brake the lead Ferrari into turn one .
In a way , Kimi is the culprit here , for having gotten in the way of the the other two . The nerve !
Or , Max did it because he could have backed out ........like he never does !
Or , Seb is a swerving swine and wrecked everything for everyone on earth with that move .
Myself , I think the stewards got it right on this one .
yup, upon further review i'd apportion blame as suchQuote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Kimi - none
Max - 28%
Vettel 72%
You are correct. I looked at it again and the Ferrari's squeezed him.Quote:
Originally Posted by EightGear
I was convinced Kimi was to blame until seeing the overhead view, now I'm sharing it between Max and Seb.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
On the overall I think most people agree that Vettel was mainly at fault. Hamilton's come out and said he thought Vettel was unsighted in the crash and that is probably what caused the crash. I'd probably agree with that and, as I said, I don't believe there was any ill intent on his part on this occasion,even if swerving across the track like that in those conditions is just a recipe for a big bang.
The point is that it was a racing incident regardless of where you apportion blame. A racing incident doesn't have to be 50/50 or 33/33/33 as in this case. It's one of those things that happen given the day and conditions. The stewards got it right in not dispensing further punishment.
Pole sitters who get bad starts always move across. I am fascinated and enjoy the differences in everyone's opinion of this incident. I agree with the stewards decision a racing incident. I apportion a greater percentage of blame onto Max. Kimi held his line. Max initiated all of the contact when he turned into Kimi. As I see it, he had an opportunity to back out of it and chose not to, or, his situational awareness was poor because he failed to look in his mirrors. Once again, Max was in a position where contact was made with other drivers. It keeps happening, it seems only a few of us tend to notice.
In my view , the stewards were correct in their assessment , that nobody was solely to blame .
However , that's only the dry facts taken into consideration .
It doesn't consider the choices they made , relative to the situations each driver faced .
Obviously , they all went out , but who made logical choices ?
Max knew Vettel had his main title rival in 5th place , with his team-mate just ahead , holding him back , so should logically be a little careful about having Max likely wanting that first corner to be his .
And , he also wouldn't have imagined that Kimi would get such a stormer of a take off , thus , was startled when he saw him there .
Max , in the moments before the start , would have figured Seb would back out , if he went in hard .
That's logical , but he forgot about the Finn .
So , small "stupid points" for him , but then , he had nothing to lose .
For Kimi , he shouldn't have moved right at all , but I'm sure , from the look of it , that he thought he was through , and on for taking the first corner , himself .
Small , but significant misjudgment , so small "stupid points" for him , too .
But , the colossal failure on the big picture side , and huge "stupid points" haul was for Mr. Vettel , who even prompted the whole of the Italian press to burn the reds for not getting that they had to have those points at that track .
The red mist we have seen in the past clouded the season vision for Seb and he lost the plot entirely .
Though he didn't technically do anything wrong , he could have stayed a little wider and may have watched Max and Kimi take each other out . It might have taken perhaps a meter less swerve .
That meter just burned a lot of any championship hope out of his and his team's year .
Two guys with nothing to lose , wanting to win , and another with all to lose , going in just as hard .
Wait now .
Add some "stupid points" to both Kimi and Max , especially , because they both should have known that Seb is like this , getting a little misty when the pressure is really on .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriwa
Watch it again... Kimi did in fact alter his line... just as Max stopped moving towards (or at very least reduced his vector towards) Kimi.
Max is 0% at fault here.
Whichever way you apportion blame for the collision (and I really can't see how Max is culpable), it was just a boneheaded move by Vettel.
His one goal for the weekend was to stay in front of Hamilton and try to exploit the fleeting advantage that the Ferrari had at that track to retake the championship lead. And off the line he decides to slice across the track to try to cut off Max, who doesn't even figure in the championship. Even if he hadn't ended up wrecking several cars, he'd still have been off line for T1, ceding an advantage to Hamilton, who like Alonso stayed over as far left as possible. I don't get it. What was that plan here?
Pole sitters do that some times but it's always a risky manoeuvre. Why Seb did that when at most he would lose a position or two in the first corner is beyond me. He only had to stay ahead of Hamilton, he had the car to win even if he lost a position. And that he did it in those conditions even makes it more inexplicable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warriwa
People analysing this here are all failing to notice that Max only begins moving left towards Kimi in response to Vettels sharp cut across the track. He didn't move left before Vettel did. All of this was instigated by Vettel. He would be leading the championship by over 15 points now had he not had such a brain fart moment.
So it appears those in the know notice the favouritism afforded towards Ferrari and Vettel - further backs up why Vettel received no post race punishment after Baku.
Anyway, I still think the Stewards got it right on this occasion for once.Quote:
Speaking to Motorsport-Magazin.com before the stewards deemed no driver ‘predominantly to blame’, Verstappen Snr. predicted Vettel would escape punishment so as not to affect the championship battle further.
He said. "Maybe it's a political excuse because Vettel cannot allow anything.
"If they give a real punishment, the championship will be over. That's why I do not think there's anything there."
I wouldn't say that the Dutch is 100% blameless. He could have avoided Kimi but then he's a racer :rolleyes:. Other drivers might have avoided the accident. This one didn't and he often doesn't. I seems to be a very talented moron. According to my made up on the sport calculations it's like Vettel 80%, Verstappen 20%. It's funny how some point at the fact that Kimi might have turned 2cm to the right, as cause of the accident :laugh:.
The only way he could have avoided hitting Kimi would have been to have an even bigger crash with Vettel. That or slow dramatically and get hit from behind. And the decision had to be made in a fraction of a second - unlike those posting here who have had days and many replays to make up their minds. The entire incident was caused by Vettel's banzi move across the track. I've revised my opinion of the cause to 99% Vettel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I don't care how many percent of unwashed masses still believe that Vettel was at fault. Vettel might have driven aggressively, but he pretty much had no way to see that Verstappen had no racing room on his left because Raikkonen happened to have an incredibly good start and filled the space between Verstappen and the wall. This was pretty much a racing incident, and trying to seek the guilty party in it, simply confirms you as an incredibly stuck up fanboy or a hater (of whoever).
Be nice now. We're all friends here.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
First, I'm not a "fanboy"or a hater of anyone. No one on the current grid is a particular favorite of mine. I do probably have more experience than most on the subject, having testified in front of stewards a time or two.
You can see that Verstappen never got beside Vettel , because he would have hit him careening off Kimi .Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
He was closing the door as Max got there .
Had Kimi not been there , Max might have made it inside for that first corner .
The stewards called it as nobody to blame .
I think we're getting stuck on the use of the word 'blame' or 'fault' which both imply guilt.
If we asked "Who set all of this in motion?", instead of "Who's at fault, or Who's to blame?", I think the clear answer would be Vettel. If we accept that it was a racing incident, we can say Vettel set it all in motion, without saying Vetttel is guilty.
The answer would be Kimi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstgear
This thread is quite amusing.
I have yet to see anyone from the F1 fraternity push blame of Verstappen on this one.
Ferrari aside, Anyone have a link to a team boss, driver (current/former) that blames Max for this incident?
As I saw it Vettel was aggressive in his move left .Kimi had a brilliant start,and although Max was the "Jam in the Sandwich" I feel that Max could see he was being squeezed and backed out,Kimi veers right and catches Max .
To my view Max was off the gas ,and both Red cars squeezed him out .
His father Jos ,knew the score too ,and Jos has been there ,whereas many on here including myself have not
That's exactly why it was such a boneheaded move by Vettel.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
1. He was trying to make an aggressive move on somebody that was not important in the championship
2. His move was pretty much guaranteed to result in the outcome we saw if there was somebody inside of Max. Who Vettel necessarily wouldn't be able to see.
3. Cars being where Kimi was is the sort of thing that happens at the start of races all the time.