2015 Canadian Grand Prix thread

I have to say, l am really happy for Bottas and Williams getting back onto the podium again and beating the Ferrari's for a change. I am not sure what happen there to Kimi that caused him to spin. It didn't look like driver error, l think he was saying the KERS kicked in too early or something. It was very unluck for Kimi to miss out on his 1st podium of the season.

Williams seem to be not quite on par with the Ferrari. There is work to be done to take full advantage of the Mercedes engine in the car. Also, they seem also be a shade behind the Ferrari on dynamic race strategy during race time which Ferrari is clearly better at. Thats why Vettel finish 5th and Masss 6th after leading Vettel for quite some time.

But a great weekend for williams. Congratulation chaps.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

It was very unluck for Kimi to miss out on his 1st podium of the season.

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Except that he was second in Bahrain ;)

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Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster

Except that he was second in Bahrain ;)

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I forgot that one. Still a bummer for kimi tho

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I forgot that one. Still a bummer for kimi tho

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Well, he can't really blame anyone but himself, can he? His team mate started 18th, had a botched pitstop and still finished only eight seconds behind him, driving faster laps on soft tyres than Kimi did on his fresher supersofts. He was kicked into the middle of last week this weekend.

I love this track and need to visit it one day.

You know, I don't remember him spinning there last year.
I was waiting for someone to hit the Wall but they never did. Oh well, I'll always have Jarno Trulli's Toyota brakes Exploding at the end of the long straight!

What were we talking about?

I know one thing - DRS needs to go.
A second thing - the large rear wings need to return. The idea that the cars need to be slowed down needs to go as well.

If these cars weren't so dependent on aero we would more fighting on track.

Agree it was a great day for Bottas and Williams.

I think Massa drove well this weekend, the race strategy let him down abit l think. The MotR is definitely Vettel. A great recovery to 5th, a true drive of a champion. I hope Kimi has a change of fortune soon because he is looking 2nd rate compared to Vettel so far. We all know what a fast driver he is when in the zone. I really hope the ICEMAN returns soon.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I think Massa drove well this weekend, the race strategy let him down abit l think. The MotR is definitely Vettel. A great recovery to 5th, a true drive of a champion. I hope Kimi has a change of fortune soon because he is looking 2nd rate compared to Vettel so far. We all know what a fast driver he is when in the zone. I really hope the ICEMAN returns soon.

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Vettel did well, but he seemed to struggle behind Hulkenberg, and I felt a bit disappointed how he tried to execute the pass on Hulkenberg, nearly causing a collision. Maybe I am wrong on this one, since no one seems to be bringing this up.

This was slightly disappointing race for Ferrari because they seemingly collectively gave away the 3-4 finish. On the bright side, they probably have collected enough data on their latest engine mods in order to come back stronger in Austria.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

I think Massa drove well this weekend, the race strategy let him down abit l think. The MotR is definitely Vettel. A great recovery to 5th, a true drive of a champion. I hope Kimi has a change of fortune soon because he is looking 2nd rate compared to Vettel so far. We all know what a fast driver he is when in the zone. I really hope the ICEMAN returns soon.

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I dunno, I think Kimi is overrated to be honest. I don't think he is up there with the cream of the crop like Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. I don't rate Vettel as good as Hamilton or Alonso but he is close enough. He has had his ass handed to him by both Alonso and Vettel now anyway.

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I know one thing - DRS needs to go.
A second thing - the large rear wings need to return. The idea that the cars need to be slowed down needs to go as well.

If these cars weren't so dependent on aero we would more fighting on track.

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Large rear wings need to return, and there'd be more on track fighting if the cars weren't so aero dependent?

The larger wings would make the cars more aero dependent.

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

The idea that the cars need to be slowed down needs to go as well.

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How fast do they have to go?

In theory. The faster they can go, the more processional the racing will be.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I dunno, I think Kimi is overrated to be honest. I don't think he is up there with the cream of the crop like Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. I don't rate Vettel as good as Hamilton or Alonso but he is close enough. He has had his ass handed to him by both Alonso and Vettel now anyway.

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Kimi is a good solid driver but nothing really special anymore. I do like his nonchalant attitude during the competition, and am surprised, TBH that their aren't more drivers that can take things in stride (at least outwardly) as he does. But keeping an even keel is what I expect, not some unique ability. Kimi is easy to like in this respect, and that attitude is appreciated at least by me.

Kimi is a great driver when he is in the zone. I think being out of F1 as long as he did had some inherent effect on his performance. I personally would not read too much into his pairing with Alonso. It would always be difficult to beat Alonso in a car that he [Alonso] spent a few seasons influencing to his driving still. With that said, He [Kimi] has no excuse this season as he has had more input into this year's car. I am not so sure whether that means much because he is suffering more than Vettel who seems better attuned to the ferrari than Kimi. The pattern is not that different to the Vettels pairing with Webber that struggled to get the tyres working in the Red Bull; while Vettel did not and went on to win 4 world championships.

The stewards for this Canada race was great for a change. Some stewards would have penalized Vettel for the move that made the Hulk spin. I did enjoy Massa's overtake of the Sauber of Nasr. How close he got! I am sure they must have touched slightly. The rookie did well to keep it together under pressure. I am sure the Steward was a top notch racer in his time. As he saw finer details that distinguish racing from malice or stupidity and made the race more enjoyable. The Monaco steward would have dished out a penalty to Vettel for Hulk's spin.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Kimi is a great driver when he is in the zone. I think being out of F1 as long as he did had some inherent effect on his performance. I personally would not read too much into his pairing with Alonso. It would always be difficult to beat Alonso in a car that he [Alonso] spent a few seasons influencing to his driving still. With that said, He [Kimi] has no excuse this season as he has had more input into this year's car. I am not so sure whether that means much because he is suffering more than Vettel who seems better attuned to the ferrari than Kimi. The pattern is not that different to the Vettels pairing with Webber that struggled to get the tyres working in the Red Bull; while Vettel did not and went on to win 4 world championships.

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This years Ferrari car was built around Kimi, it was built for him and still can't beat his teammate. They spent months at it changing things around to suit his driving style. He is a good solid driver when in the zone but applying the word "great" to him is something that I could definitely not concur with. Maybe ten years ago before he left McLaren we could apply that to him but I don't think he has been the same driver since he left McLaren (even though he won a WDC since) and I don't think his two years out of the business has affected him at all, given his comeback year was actually quite impressive.

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Kimi is a good solid driver but nothing really special anymore. I do like his nonchalant attitude during the competition, and am surprised, TBH that their aren't more drivers that can take things in stride (at least outwardly) as he does. But keeping an even keel is what I expect, not some unique ability. Kimi is easy to like in this respect, and that attitude is appreciated at least by me.

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I do respect Kimi's attitude but really it's the driving done on track that interests me the most and really a good solid just about sums him up now unfortunately. He was a great driver back in the McLaren days but I don't think he has been the same since he left as I said in my above post as well.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

This years Ferrari car was built around Kimi, it was built for him and still can't beat his teammate. They spent months at it changing things around to suit his driving style. He is a good solid driver when in the zone but applying the word "great" to him is something that I could definitely not concur with. Maybe ten years ago before he left McLaren we could apply that to him but I don't think he has been the same driver since he left McLaren (even though he won a WDC since) and I don't think his two years out of the business has affected him at all, given his comeback year was actually quite impressive.

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Fair comment, in this business you are as good as your last season. Kimi needs to get is finger out if he wants to keep his drive at ferrari next year. I am sure ferrari are eyeing Bottas or possibly Ricciado. Ferrari can smell the blood, they know they can reel in Mercedes and they know mercedes are very shaky under pressure. There is more reason for them to change their driver lineup for a more hungrier and aggressive driver pairing. Kimi just doesn't seem hungry for success enough at the moment. I hope that would change at the next race. hence l would agree with you but with some reservation. We are talking about the iceman here, he may turn up to the race next time round.

I used to think a lot of Kimi but I think I really over-rated him. he has been beaten by too many team mates by now.

This hits the nail squarely on the head:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/an...-and-pony-show

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

The stewards for this Canada race was great for a change. Some stewards would have penalized Vettel for the move that made the Hulk spin. I did enjoy Massa's overtake of the Sauber of Nasr. How close he got! I am sure they must have touched slightly. The rookie did well to keep it together under pressure. I am sure the Steward was a top notch racer in his time. As he saw finer details that distinguish racing from malice or stupidity and made the race more enjoyable. The Monaco steward would have dished out a penalty to Vettel for Hulk's spin.

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The ex-driver steward was Alan Jones, the 1980 WDC. He's a fairly no-nonsense guy it would seem. I don't think much of him as a commentator (on Australia TV) but I think he can tell the difference between a stupid move and a bit of hard racing.

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Originally Posted by Nem14

This hits the nail squarely on the head:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/an...-and-pony-show

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Quite a different tone to the previous Ferrari boss. I particularly agree with this part:

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Originally Posted by Sergio Marchionne

I love Montreal but it doesn't mean we have to come out here and carry on this dog and pony show if there is no way of attracting an audience. Without them, you've got nothing.

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F1 seems to want to hide itself away behind a pay wall. Fans have little access to the teams and drivers at races because that's reserved for the people who can pay to get into the paddock. Fewer and fewer countries have access to the sport on free-to-air television because the Bernie has let the rights go to pay TV companies who can afford to pay more. Races are lost to the traditional heartland of the sport (ie. Europe) in favour of countries with no motorsport heritage but deep pockets. As a result the stands are half empty because the locals can't afford a ticket. This is to say nothing of the product on the track.

Marchionne is right. A sport is nothing without it's fans. Even if the product on the track improves it won't make much difference if people can't get easy access to it.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I dunno, I think Kimi is overrated to be honest. I don't think he is up there with the cream of the crop like Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. I don't rate Vettel as good as Hamilton or Alonso but he is close enough. He has had his ass handed to him by both Alonso and Vettel now anyway.

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Räikkönen is like the McLaren team now.:) People wax lyrical about how they "used to be great" and how they have "lots of potential", but real life evidence suggests they are no more than mid-level competitors these days and others have stolen the show.

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Originally Posted by jens

Räikkönen is like the McLaren team now.:) People wax lyrical about how they "used to be great" and how they have "lots of potential", but real life evidence suggests they are no more than mid-level competitors these days and others have stolen the show.

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I would not say Mclaren was "no more than a mid-level competitor" as you put it. Ferrari has been in this position in the past and Red bull are very much suffering the same but obviously better than Mclaren.
Mclaren was the main engine customer to Mercedes. A status that ensured that they always get the lastest and greatest engine tech that Merc comes up with. Now, with Mercedes running their own F1 team, Mclaren do not enjoy that special relationship anymore as Merc would obviously reserve the cutting edge tech for their team to maintain competitive advantage over its customers.
It is quite clear that Mclaren cannot hope to become world champions in this scenario where they are competing with their engine supplier, hence it is a no brainer that they have to move to a new supplier. In this case Honda.
It is always difficult to make such a technological move, particularly to a supplier that has been out of the sport for some time. Developing the car in this scenario would always put the team down the order of the grid. Hence Mclaren's current position is quite understandable. I assure you it is not a true reflection of the potential of the team. However, what is of interest is how quickly they can recover from where they are to fighting with the sharp end of the grid. If they can do it before the end of this season, then we are set for a cracking 2016 season, where l expect to see Alonso and Button (l hope) challenging for podium positions.
The two giants involved have the resources to do it. And the old partnership with Alonso in their car, also have the potential to do something special if they can get their recovery right. Hopefully by not rushing forward under pressure to deliver but by patiently doing it right.

Mclaren are world champions, definitely not a mid level competitor.

You Mr Nitrodaze, have perfectly proven my point.;) The hype is still there. Three years ongoing.

By the way, I didn't say WAS, I said IS. It doesn't matter, what was decades ago. Lotus was also a top team, but isn't any more.

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

Hence Mclaren's current position is quite understandable.

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Not really. If they were somewhere, where Red Bull currently sits, i.e 4th best team, it could perhaps be somewhat understandable. But they are last. Which is worse than Jaguar, Toyota and BAR ever were. Except BAR in 1999...

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Originally Posted by Nitrodaze

However, what is of interest is how quickly they can recover from where they are to fighting with the sharp end of the grid. If they can do it before the end of this season, then we are set for a cracking 2016 season, where l expect to see Alonso and Button (l hope) challenging for podium positions. .

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There is only one example in the last decades, where a backmarker team become a front-runner within 1 year. That was Honda/Brawn GP in 2008-2009. Honda was a backmarker in 2008. However, 2009 saw a major change in technical regulations. As far as I am aware, there are no significant changes for 2016.

Being that far down the field is a sign of serious lack of depth in the team and there is no quick recovery/fix. There is a reason, why a team is last. It means they haven't done their homework well. However, you are right being last is not a true reflection of McLaren's potential. They should be in midfield at least.:) Saying they are mid-level competitors was actually a praise to them now!

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Originally Posted by jens

There is only one example in the last decades, where a backmarker team become a front-runner within 1 year. That was Honda/Brawn GP in 2008-2009. Honda was a backmarker in 2008. However, 2009 saw a major change in technical regulations. As far as I am aware, there are no significant changes for 2016.

Being that far down the field is a sign of serious lack of depth in the team and there is no quick recovery/fix. There is a reason, why a team is last. It means they haven't done their homework well. However, you are right being last is not a true reflection of McLaren's potential. They should be in midfield at least.:) Saying they are mid-level competitors was actually a praise to them now!

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I take your point, there has been a major reshuffle that led up to the engine manufacture switch. Williams is a good example of regrouping from such a re-organisation and it took them a while to get back to the sharpend. And l think they are still tittering on the border of the sharpend. But Mclaren have more resources and funding than Williams, so one would expect a shorter turnaround. With that said, l agree that one season may be a big ask for Mclaren to turn things around. But it can be done within 2 seasons; and to be challenging by the 3rd season, judging by the might of Honda. Boullier has his work cut out. If he pulls it off, he would be one of the most celebrated team managers on the grid.

This raises a number of questions tho:-

1. Can Alonso wait 2 years before being able to mount another world championship campaign? Note that this gestation period is very different from Hamilton's move to Merc. Hamilton had a "top end of the midfield" 1st year at merc, 2nd year won 1st WDC for Merc. But there were other factors involved which are quite different from Mclaren's. In Hamilton-Merc 1st year, the car was already where Williams currently is. The current Mclaren is much further back compared. Merc F1 was strenghten their team approaching taking Hamilton on board while Mclaren had a major reshuffle and engine change.
2. Would Alonso have what it takes to win the WDC in 2017? Can he keep motivated to do it?


I think with all these talks about changes to F1, we are set for some sort of change that could upset the order of things. Hence it is unpredictable who would have the next technological advantage.