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AP4 regs, the Australia/New Zealand alternative to R5:
http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/d...ally%20Car.pdf
More freedom over Maxi Rally regs (wider range of components) but easier to made and potentially cheaper than R5 (in house made cars over external bodyshell/roll-cage package, supplied by approved builders).
Some videos at the NZ Rally thread.
Mark Pedder did Rally Australia (in WRC field) with a 208 from this regulation.
Yep. Because AP4 regs are based in Argentina's Maxi Rally, MR cars are allowed. Pedder's 208 came from Baratec and uses the 1.6T new engine.
Every country outside of Europe can choose the category they want to see in their local WRC event.
That should be another reason to let private tuners homologate R5 cars. They would became cheaper and easier to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
Wrong. AP4 was a clean sheet exercise which has produced a formula with more similarities to WRC2 than MR. There is a looseness which allows MR cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
This concept has been sadly proven non-functional with R-GT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
AP4 hardly could be described as a clean sheet exercise as it's clearly based in MaxiRally and R5 regs.Quote:
Originally Posted by sollitt
From AP4 reg:
"The philosophy of AP4 is to establish a set of technical articles that allow rally teams to build locally, or buy cars of parallel design from overseas, that will be of a
similar specification and performance to each other and to that of the FIA R5 / S2000 Category cars, but at significantly lower cost. (...) Alternatively a ‘Maxi Rally’ car (being a car in compliance with the 2013 Specific Regulations for “Maxi Rally” Vehicles – Rallies), may be purchased directly from the
constructor in Argentina or through their approved agent as detailed in PART THREE of these regulations. A ‘Maxi Rally’ car may also be purchased in ‘kit form’ and
assembled in compliance with the stated regulations. Such cars (provided they maintain compliance with these regulations) will be accepted as meeting the eligibility
criteria of Group AP4."
All the regs:
AP4: http://www.motorsport.org.nz/sites/d...ally%20Car.pdf
Maxi Rally: http://www.cdaaca.org.ar/be//adjunto...6201417921.pdf
R5: http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/A5499B0FD08BBF23C1257A8B0050EBEC/$FILE/GROUP5.pdf
You're right! That's why everybody should pressure FIA to ease up homologation processes. In R5, RGT and even on R1/R2/R3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
R-GT is different I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Their could be a market for R2 cars for example. You can see some local production in South Africa / Namibia or India.
Some countries in Asia are doing great with their regulation. For example in China, you have various manufacturers homologating cars in group S. In Argentina, Australia, NZ you have some new regulations, because FIA cars are difficult to get, or cost too much.
If you allow free R2 f.e. (I mean not only the manufacturers approved one), maybe some countries would choose to use this.
You could have new cars on forgotten markets (look the situation in Asia now, and what it was 20 years ago), or even some private team in Europe doing it.
So, AP4 is basically a crossover between MR & R5..? (with six speed gearbox)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
And what about Activ Rallysport i20 Proto from Poland, is it also the AP4.?
BTW, where I can find the example of Chinese Group S rally cars beside Prodrive Golf..?Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
I can assure you that it was absolutely a 'clean sheet' exercise but as with any well considered change of direction the brief was wide ranging. The AP4 regs were the work of a team in New Zealand. At the time there were 2 Maxi Cars under construction in NZ and representatives of these teams were involved in initial meetings and it would be fair to say they had some influence in ensuring those cars were included. But that's quite different from the rules being "based on Maxi rules" (as per your earlier statement). They were not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Neither were they "based on R5 regulations" however logic determined that there would be a high level of similarity.
Once again, not correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
No, Proto cars from Poland are not AP4 compliant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
For sure there is Fabia in S2000 body and WRC engine driving in Chinese champsQuote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
S6 (4WD)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Triyudho Wardono
Subaru Impreza WRX Sti (maybe it's the same than the old Subaru USA ? Not sure)
Skoda Fabia III
Skoda Fabia II + Skoda Fabia S2000 with 1.6T engine
BAIC-Saab D50
BAIC E150
Soueast V6
Soueast Mitsubishi Lancer EX
Soueast Lancer Evo X
S5 :
FAW Skoda Octavia
FAW Volkswagen Golf
S4 :
Chery A3
Dongfeng Citroën C2
Dongfeng DS3
Dongfeng Honda Civic
FAW Volkswagen Golf
GAC Toyota Yaris
S3 :
Baojun 630
Changan Ford Focus
Changan Suzuki SX4
Dongfeng Citroën C4
Dongfeng Ming Si
FAW VW Golf
S2 :
Buick HRV
BYD F3
Changan Ford Fiesta
Dongfeng Citroën C2
Dongfeng Peugeot 206
Dongfeng Yueda Kia Cerato
Fengshen Aeolus
GAC TOyota Yaris
Geely GX2
Guangqi Honda Fit
JAC Heyue A30
Lifan X50
Soueast Lioncel
Youngman Lotus L3
S1 :
Changan Suzuki Swift
Lifan 320
Lifan 330
Lifan LF132
Shanghai VW Polo
and so on ...
What could this mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
A kit car, with spaceframe, or a kit to build in to an existing car, as the Poles do?
pricewise we are still talking a place btw 100-250 000 €, hopefully closer to the first number. Still a lot of money for a privateer!
Subaru have another hatchback in the future. Might make a better rally/ RX base than the sedan 4 door.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/201...py-photos-news
Here's the official preview image from Subaru for the 2015 Tokyo motor show
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/mo...ed-tokyo-motor
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/site...?itok=Fbr7x0Cw
http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/site...?itok=Sl6qnTHI
Of course we all know Subaru production cars never live up to their concept counterparts
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bU1xsIRgGu...ubaru-WRX0.jpg
According from Patrik Sandell (he was driving for Fan Fan at Hokkaido), the Soueast Lancer EX has the paddle shift.Quote:
Originally Posted by vino_93
This could be a way of making a basic production road more competitive against the big dollar cars.
Hopper's 600 hp Subaru 2.3 litre engine - carbon fibre roof, lightweight bonnet, doors boot lid. Modena sequential transmission.
https://youtu.be/tdvqJ6QQoFI
Doesn't help when you hit power poles thought...
A Power Pole and water main
The new R4 kit only outside Europe? What’s the point to create a R4 kit to be used only outside Europe when Australia and New Zeeland have AP4 regulations and South America has the Maxi Rally car? OK, they are not FIA homologated but as far as I understand from the regional sporting regulations (http://www.fia.com/regulations/regul...lltext=&page=1 page 55 APRC and page 66 CODASUR) they are eligible to score points in the regional championships?
http://www.fia.com/invitation-tender
FIA Regional and National Rally Championships (outside Europe) - Call for expressions of interest (supply of "R4-Kits")
From the document.
“All candidates shall pay a non‐refundable fee of €15,000 (fifteen thousand euros) by 30 November
2015 at the latest for their proposal to be taken into consideration within the framework of the
selection process.”
The dream opportunity for every village blacksmith.
Some figures.
TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS – CHARACTERISTICS OF THE VEHICLE (page 35)
The vehicle will weigh around 1200 kg and be equipped with a 1.6 turbo engine producing less than 280 hp. (see Technical and Homologation Regulations for VR4‐KIT cars).
The maximum internal diameter of the restrictor is 33mm (proposal TBC) (page 41 in the pdf document)
The maximum boost pressure is 2.5 bar*.
The homologated FIA boost control system (pop-off valve, see FIA Technical list n°43) must
be fitted on the FIA pipe as described on the homologation form. (page 41)
ii. The total cost of the "R4‐Kit" shall not exceed €105,000 (one hundred and five thousand
euros). This amount shall be exclusive of all taxes and charges and shall not be increased for
any reason during the first four years of homologation. (page 8 & 73)
Knowing FIA's cost control efficacy, those kits will probably be 30% to 40% more expensive...Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
I also can't understand the implementation of this R4 kits...is it a way to control homologations at AP and Codasur countries?
Either way, it would be more useful, for european and overseas costumers, to see FIA making pressure over manus to reduce R5 prices.
What is the plan for Europe, if not part of this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldF
Sounds a bit weird, but it's been rumored that Maxi Rally will be available in 2016 Spanish champ...
Doubt they'll match R5 and RGT in the spanish tarmac, but maybe RFEA will use some balancing rules.
It looks like Baratec is shipping two Peugeot 208 MR with 1.6T enginfe for next year. Both will be run by RMC, one will run in tarmac Championship and the other will be driven by Nicolas Fuchs in the gravel Championship.
FIA has recently created new regulations for series outside Europe but now it seems that the “movement” is opposite, first cars developed outside Europe are imported to a European regional championship :D. When will we see the first AP4 kit in Europe? Btw, is it the same company developing the 1.6T engine as the 2400 NA Honda engine? http://www.oresteberta.com/producto-22.php?lang=es
Is it possible to build cars after this R4 regulations too compete in europe? Is it like the swedish R5 that you have to get National homologation by every countrys federation?
It seems Spanish rally championships will really use Maxi Rally cars!!!
They'll be called N5, and beside imported cars from Argentina, spanish tuners will also build new models under MR/N5 rules. Their aim it's to give local competitors the chance of getting competitive 4wd cars, less expensive than R5's.
Besides the already known RMC MR 208's imported from Argentina, AR Vidal Racing has undertaken the construction of a brand new N5 Swift for spanish Suzuki importer.
http://www.suzukimotorsport.es/2015/...-categoria-n5/
N5 rules are expected to be very close to MR rules, but could have minor changes in order to get the cars more competitive in tarmac. It's not clear if current R5 rules will be changed to ease a match with N5.
Some of our South-American members wrote that the price of Maxi Rally cars was near 200 thousand Euro and that the main advantage was that they were not subject of import-duty in Argentina. What's the benefit of using such non-FIA car imported from the opposite side of the globe?
On the other thread, I said I thought it was around 200k dollars, not euros.
And one reason I think is the running costs. What I know, for example from the R5 cars in Paraguay is that there is a need of bringing from Europe an engineer for each race. Besides that, whenever there is there need to rebuild engine and gearbox, those parts need to be shipped to Europe. On the other hand, I think that those Maxi Rally cars don't need that kind of thing, the team itself can do the maintenance.
Sorry for the mistake I did with the currency. Still I don't se the benefits. I believe it's cheaper to run Maxi-rally car than R5 (although I'm pretty sure it's cheaper to run R5 in Europe where there are hundreds of them than in Argentina) but there is really big disadvantage that those cars are not allowed in FIA events in Europe. Does it worth to sacrifice the FIA "compatibility" for "somewhat cheaper car"? Maybe somebody can clearly say yes and give us clear reasoning.
Yes, I agree with you. Running those cars in South America can be a benefit, especially considering that they are allowed in Rally Argentina.
But I also can't see any special reason for them to be used on Europe. Maybe their cost is below the 150k-200k dollars I said or the running cost is, for some reason, a lot lower than that of a R5 car.
First of all: with this new N5 spanish rules, spanish tuners will have the opportunity to build 4wd rally cars locally. As N5 rules are pretty much the same as MR, every team or driver can import MR's cars from Argentina but they'll also can buy them from spanish tuners (AR Vidal with the Swift is the first, but there are others capable rally tuners in spain and it's not hard to believe that in a short term several other cars will appear).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
Co-driven's 150k to 200k dollars price estimation for MR cars seems a bit large, but even considering a 200k price, MR cars would cost around 180.000€. That's 50.000€ less than a Fabia R5 (gravel spec/no taxes). It's a lot, and probably many european N4 drivers would be tented to buy N5/MR's, like most south american drivers were. Also, like in MR rules, N5 cars are ment to be controlled spec cars. They use the same engine, transmission, brakes, suspension, etc. That really helps to cut down running costs.
There's another big advantage: with FIA restricted homologation system, many importers can't have rally programs in their countries because very few brands have FIA homologated cars (compared to Gr.N/A days, the number of Gr.R homologations it's ridiculous). With a liberal system like N5/MR, there's space for larger brands involvement, like already seen in South America. Spreading tuners choice (from nowadays half a dozen manus tuners) will also help private teams and drivers to have a larger and cheaper choice of 4wd rally cars.
On N5 lack of FIA international events status: it may be only a question of time...(and for the large majority of european MR/N5 potencial costumers that's not a real issue, as long local ASN's accepts them in their national champs).
PS: I'm also a fan of R5 cars (just critic on their overprice), but FIA homologation system it's too limited and doesn't helped rallying. MR/N5 and others solutions must be understood as complementary and benefic for the sport.
In my opinion lack of international homologation for those N5/MR cars is a big issue and a big problem for many drivers. 50k euros difference is not that huge, if someone can afford to buy and run car for 180k euros, highly possible he can afford those 50k more. Difference in running costs of those cars cannot be that big, maybe only in engine, but simply I'm not familiar with MR cars engines, so I don't know. But transmissions for sure similar, also in R5 case no need to have manufacturer engineer on events like someone mentioned before.
Also those MR cars might be good and already developed to some level on gravel, but tarmac is completely different story and many countries in Europe have events mainly on tarmac.
https://translate.google.no/translat...ategoria-n5%2F
N5 looks like a good option to me.
Both for tuning firms and drivers in national series.
And if nations could cooperate on rules, a healty 2.nd hand market could evolve!
50k euro is a lot of money for a privateer. You could almost buy a second hand N4, and do a complete Norwegian Championship for that amount!!Quote:
Originally Posted by br21
Second hand N4 is unable to challenge the R5. If You compare with R5 You must compare option with similar performance. Several years a go a used Punto S2000 cost 1/4 of new Fabia S2000 and actually less than a good N4 car. Still nobody was buying the Puntos but everybody was going to spend more for a competitive package. It doesn't matter that much if You spend 230 or 180 thousand Euro. Both is a lot of money and You think twice before You throw them out of the window. It's a sport tool and as such the primary thing is performance. If You buy the car just for fun, ok, but how many of rally drivers have no ambitions?
Maybe the Maxi rally cars can be competitive against R5 (although I doubt that). Still why not to buy second-hand Fiesta R5 for the same price instead? Maybe it's more expensive to run but You can take part in international events with it, You have a proper comparison with international drivers, You have a kind of performance and service guarantee and one day You can sell it to anywhere.
I understand the reasoning with giving an option to take part to the importer teams which have no homologated cars of their make. I'm not sure such motivation will work though. Maybe it's different in Spain but here the dealers are not particularly interested in rallying if they are not driven in it by the manufacturer itself.
Anyway I agree that the current homologation system is far from being ideal. I would also welcome more freedom to build own cars but it shall be taken as a systematic approach by FIA. Playing on own national sandpit has never helped the sport in global.
I agree with you on what you are saying Mirek, but I think we are writing past eachother.
I am now talking of a guy that are doing this either for fun, or as his first 4wd car, to be used in a national series, not in ERC, WRC.
Many drivers used, and are using N4 cars for this due to cost. But those cars are getting old, and national series need a modern, cheap option.
The point is not to match the speed of a top notch R5, since they will be in different classes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek