I read that article on their page and looks like it is concentrated on Australian GP history. But Alonso won his debut Ferrari race in Bahrain, as indicentally this was the season opener that year.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
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I read that article on their page and looks like it is concentrated on Australian GP history. But Alonso won his debut Ferrari race in Bahrain, as indicentally this was the season opener that year.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
That's me , Taz , naive all over the place .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
I guess you'd have to say that it perhaps was the tv announcer who was being "naive" , as he was the one relating the idea from the team .
I'm just here to make sure you heard it , as we were talking about feedback Fred .
Good on Fred for speaking Italian , but , you know that's a little more for the fans than for the team , right ?
You know they have a few English speakers there too , right ?
As for getting the stats wrong , I would rather they put the incompetent employee in that position than on the race team .
They look foolish to the anorak , but they came third in the race .
I hope Fred shows up next race , and not in a go-kart from 25 years ago .
And , I hope Mac and Honda show up as well .
How quick they are to forget. Though in context, it was Kimi who ended the long streak of not winning the first race, so maybe it wasn't intentional by Ferrari.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
My opinion came from far more than a theory about driver chemistry, but from paying attention to the recent history at Ferrari. When the team mentality allows both drivers to race, their team does better. That and sweeping changes in management that affected the team mentality are large factors IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Rubens left after being sick of being a required #2. Massa steps in and becomes the new #2. MS retires, Kimi steps in. Kimi and Massa are allowed to race, resulting in 1 WDC and a very close 2nd by the two drivers, with the close second drama coming down to the last corner of the last race, courtesy of Vettel passing Hammy in the wet. 2009 shows the world what a blow it was for Ferrari to lose Ross Brawn, as the Brawn car shows dominance. So for 2010 they remove their most recent WDC winner and bring in Alonso. Cue team orders, the largest allowed fine for bringing the sport into disrepute and Massa once again knowing he is #2. After a couple years of Massa being number 2, they bring Kimi back. So they sacked the guy that brought them within a point of a WDC, and kept the guy that never brought them that close, all while making it clear the car would be developed to his liking. And even after soundly beating Kimi in 2014, Fred has had enough and walks.
Ferrari have been their own worst enemies IMO. By demoting one driver when rules allow (and often when the rules didn't allow) they destroy that drivers morale. The sweeping team changes that started after spygate continued to happen, and started with moving all the Italians to the senior positions regardless of ability. Head chopping continued to the point of essentially blaming Alonso for not doing enough, despite the fact that he was driving the wheels off a car that was obviously a pig. Ferrari made a car not only down on power, but at twitchy as an addict in need of a fix. I'm surprised even Fred could drive the thing.
And in 2014 alone, Ferrari saw major changes in president, team principle, chief designer, engineering director, and the engine department.
What Ferrari need IMO is some stability, and to act as a team rather than a group of people assigning blame when the team doesn't come out on top. I hope the recent changes are the end of the instability. If not, neither Seb nor Kimi has a chance at another title IMO. But when I see drivers supporting each other, working with the engineers and pit personnel, and liking their jobs that is an indication to me that the team mentality is in place. They have two drivers both proven capable of WDC winning drives and seasons. What they need is to take a deep breath and let the team settle to function at their top level, showing loyalty to the members that have always performed at their highest level in attempts to bring them titles. This means replacing nobody.... at any level.... until they have a proven better person to do the job.
The mentality of cutting heads hasn't worked.
I think when it started it was more a tongue in cheek jab at the extremes of the fanbois and haters trading jabs. I'm sure some of this will continue, as both camps will obviously continue to exist. I could quote some posts after the first race that would back that statement, but I think most of us see who the extremists are. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
I just hope Seb made the move to the right Ferrari. The team needs to get their act together and collectively work on catching up with Mercedes, remaining optimistic yet accepting that it won't happen overnight. They once again appear to have two motivated and capable drivers, and I hope the two are allowed a fair fight on track.
I don't think you read it very well Dawg. Why did they mention Fangio, il leon, and Mario? none of those bro dudes won at Oz in a Ferrari. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
:idea: :angel:Quote:
Kimi Raikkonen won his maiden outing for Ferrari, an achievement matched only by Juan Manuel Fangio, Mario Andretti and Nigel Mansell.
http://formula1.ferrari.com/en/races...term=401976688
That employee is the head of the Ferrari propaganda machine :idea: That is not incompetence, and if it was I would expect a correction mate! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
.........still waiting :laugh:
At any rate it should be an interesting season. Let's see how fair the "new" team is to both pilotas this season! I suggest that not much has changed in that dept.
You are right, I didn't read well.:) Well, guess, they... forgot then? :uhoh: Like I forgot to read properly! These things happen.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
The guy with the "kick me" sign on his back always appreciates someone letting him know , before he gets kicked too often .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Did you send a wee note to Ferrari to let them know ?
If not , don't expect them to notice , as they are too busy keeping we , the naive , in stories , being that neither Seb or Kimi knows how to twit .
The reds stated that they had some pretty low ambition at first , but now they have seen a little potential , I think they understand that taking the fight to Mercedes will mean using both cars , because they see it as , in fact , possible . They are talking bigger now .
All there know the whole package is better , but the announcer went out of the way to say that the accolade
for Seb was as much taken as a shot at Fred .
Any way , no worries .
We'll see how his awesome simulator feedback improves the car next weekend .
+1
Cheers mate! :stareup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
At least I took McLaren in FGB , and his friends, and our family atQuote:
Both Alonso and McLaren have spoken of their belief that the Spaniard will be cleared to race, but the FIA will have the final say regarding his fitness.
The 33-year-old will head to Cambridge University on Sunday for the first test where he will be examined by three FIA-appointed doctors.
Should Alonso pass Sunday's test he will head to Malaysia where the remaining tests will be conducted. Once in Malaysia, medical delegate of the FIA, Jean-Charles Piette, will conduct reaction and cognitive tests and compare the results to readings from when Alonso had previously done the tests. Finally, Alonso will be checked out by a doctor at the Sepang International Circuit.
"The Fighting Anglo Mafia" send our best wishes and prayers out to Fred. Get well soon champ! :angel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ak3J5DayiCk
:angel:
Yay, Vettel second, split the two Mercedes in the wet.:)
Vettel needed a new challenge and he has clearly risen to it.
YES! YES! YES!
:bounce: :hot:
Incredible! Fantastic!
Yes, yes, yes!
Vettel is back! Ferrari is back!
I know critics will be saying that Vettel is the luckiest bastard in the world to get his hands on dominant cars, and his achievements and wins mean nothing, while great drivers are mired in rubbish cars, but I don't care.:D
Jens, that Minardi-Red Bull wasn't dominant, neither was that BMW he debuted in, or the 09/10 Red Bulls & nor is the Ferrari F-15T.
'Other' drivers could have been in that car today, instead it was a German winning in Ferrari #5. Poetic indeed..
I've always enjoyed reading your posts because they were very well written and seemed quite objective but I feel now I've been fooled. I'm very surprised by this attitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
Thanks.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
Don't worry, it was in the heat of the moment.
Plus I have already been so used to someone adding "But" to anything Vettel does. Already after the Australian GP 3rd place celebration (a success in my view!) there were lots of "buts" in the discussion. It was a reaction after what happened in Australia, because I felt people were trying to take the joy out of the achievement.
2014 was an average year by all accounts. I am not going to argue anything there. It is a great comeback. No "ifs" and "buts". 2015 is not a winless season, even if it remains a solitary victory.:)
Can I just say
Where is Garry Walker when you need him. :D
Who is Garry Walker? Is he Murray Walkers brother :DQuote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
It is really easy to say that Vettel ONLY won because Merc made a mistake, but I would say 'utter rubbish' both Mercs were on track, both Mercs finished and both Mercs were mechanically sound. Not Ferrari's fault that Merc's tactics were not the best. And Seb did overtake the silver things on track.
Possibly not Vettels greatest win, that was and always will be the Minardi win in Italy, but it was one of the most satisfying.
Surely you remember Garry. He is the forums biggest Vettel fan :rolleyes: :dork:Quote:
Originally Posted by anfield5
tell them to FOCUS 3 wins for 3 teamsQuote:
Originally Posted by jens
I don't know, what Garry is up to and whether he still watches F1, but in the time of glory it is important to remember those, who are suffering as well.:) Garry, world may be tough and unfair, but you'll pull through and I guarantee you already the next race will be much better.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by steveaki13
Quote:
Originally Posted by jens
There used to be a thread titled "Vettel and his personality". A moderator deemed it to be too 'negative' so they discontinued that discussion. There were also a lot of positive comments and some lively debates in that thread. If the moderators want to be consistent they should also close this thread for being too 'positive', or reopen the old thread.
Regardless if we agree with another's opinion, we should not censor an entire thread on a public forum.
Not sure that it has been mentioned, but if i were SEB, i'd be glad that i left RB when i did. For cryin outloud that ship is taking on water FAST!
Can't remember if I've ever even posted in this thread. I do like Seb - he's a good guy, but I think he has been either very smart or very lucky in his career choices. I'll never rate him as one of the greats, especially given the pasting he got from his teammate last year - the one year he actually had a chance to prove himself and he didn't. Now he has lucked into a Ferrari resurgence. Maybe he'll win a WDC with them but, I'm afraid the chance to prove himself as a great (last year and like Alonso did in 2012) has probably come and gone.
Honestly I think he switched teams either because he wanted a change or because another season behind Ricciardo would have damaged his image even more. I would say a little bit of both. I have somehow doubts he foresaw the evolutions of both RBR or Ferrari. Did anyone really?
One thing is that Vettel wanted to drive Ferrari already a long time ago, it was his dream. So it was about timing the right moment. When you achieved already everything and even "more than enough" (which 4 WDCs is), and there is an opening in Ferrari (Alonso was on his way out), it was a perfect moment to switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
As for insider knowledge of team competitiveness. Vettel saw that Red Bull (or more likely Renault) had lost ground with new regs and Newey was going to retire. It wasn't so much about RBR being as bad as now, but generally their golden days (4 consecutive titles) were over.
I don't really think he could have expected Ferrari to be that good already, but he signed with them on the back of a long-term plan. For 3-5 years and then let's see, what comes out of it. I think the first two races of 2015 have exceeded expectations. Generally - Ferrari is a legendary team and in a way pretty consistent - "thereabouts" all the time, even if not quite at the top. So it is not like Vettel was signing with a potential backmarker team. Signing for, say, McLaren-Honda would have contained far more risks. Because "McLaren-Honda" package contains more unknown factors, Ferrari has less unknowns.
We can remember, how Hamilton switched teams back in 2012. I am not sure he had clear evidence McLaren was going to drop back so spectacularly, but he must have been convinced that the Mercedes project is a good one long-term, regardless of what happens to McLaren.
As for Ricciardo. Everyone has to manage their careers as well as they can. If you can be a #1 driver in a legendary team, you'll go for it. Especially as Red Bull is/was "been there, done that". Had there been no Ricciardo and Vettel had beaten Webber yet again 2014, I think he would still have been looking for ways to exit Red Bull. Drivers want change.
Mind you, I would not rule out the possibility Ricciardo might become Vettel's team-mate again in the next few years, this time in Ferrari.:) Räikkönen is not going to stay around forever and Ricciardo is on my list among the next drivers, who could possibly start "looking for a change", especially if the RBR project doesn't work out any more.
"Jense" diss'ing Seb:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Ha11LOjtihGyX2Quote:
Jenson Button believes Sebastian Vettel is lucky to have found himself driving a more competitive Ferrari, suggesting Fernando Alonso would have achieved the same had he stayed.
Vettel, in only his second race with Ferrari, claimed victory in the Malaysian Grand Prix after comfortably out-performing Mercedes, marking the first time the Scuderia has won a race since the 2013 Spanish Grand Prix.
A historic success for Vettel, who has now notched up 40 F1 career wins, Button is more skeptical about the effect the driver itself had on returning Ferrari to success, saying 'sometimes things work out for you'.
“He has definitely lucked into a situation, I would say," Button told the Daily Mail.
“It is one of those situations which sometimes works out for you, for example [Daniel] Ricciardo was overtaken by his new team-mate [Kvyat], and lapped by his ex-team-mate on the same lap. Who would have thought that at the end of last year? So sometimes you do luck into a situation."
JB can be a real cut-up! :angel:
Which part of what he said is incorrect? It's true really. It's not like he had much input into the car design. I guess you make your own luck but between RBR and Ferrari now, Seb certainly has had a lot of it! Not take anything away from him, he took the decisions that benefited him at the right time as all top drivers must do but, as we saw last year, unless the car suits him, he certainly isn't capable of driving around things. He was lucky in this decision, yes, but he was also smart I guess :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Well after winning 4 consecutive WDCs, even if in a great car, I would hardly call it luck. Granted he did get beat by Ricciardo the following year, but often WDCs are won in cars where both drivers finish at the pointy end of the pack. Similar to Rubens finishing in 3rd when Jenson got his title in 2009.
Not to take anything from either driver, but Jenson saying this after going from a what.... 16th place finish in the 2008 Honda and then walking into the most dominant car in recent history. Well that's some :laugh: stuff Jenson!
Sure Jenson is talking from his own experience, since he must have been as surprised as anybody to get a car as fantastic as the 2009 Brawn out of nowhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
This is not dissing anybody, just that life is what it is.:)
I don't think Button is dissing Vettel either. He is just telling how he understand the situation, when microphone was put in front of him. People just read too much into driver's comments. I think real "dissing" takes place on Internet forums, not among drivers.:)
But on the forums people go like "omg he said that, now it is WAR!" In the end the real war is fought among fanboys...
t is not as if a team can brainwash a driver when he leaves the team setup data and whatnot
Well I think Vettel can manage the tyres better.
As if the Mercedes had not had to pit 3 times against Vettel,s twice,then the race could have been different and maybe seen a different result
I admired the way Vettel won his first and third championships because he had to fight like hell the whole way. His other two were really good, if not a bit too easy. Still, two hard fought championships that went to the last lap of the season is enough to make anyone a great.
When you consider Gilles Villeneuve won six grands prix and no championships, yet is on almost everyone's top 10 list, you have to wonder why so many people want to discredit what Vettel has done.
People can make all kinds of excuses why Vettel won in the Ferrari while in the last year the God-like Alonso could not, but the fact remains that Vettel has won not only in the Red Bull, the Ferrari, and unbelievably, a Torro Rosso! Were all three of those the best cars on the grid at the time?
After all of the years of Senna and Prost trying to pinch each other into the pit wall and succeeding to determine the championship twice by crashing into each other on purpose, not to mention the Schumacher years of constant, non stop chopping, blocking, swerving and assailing compeditors "deliberately, but instinctually," one might think fans would be happy to have a champion in Vettel who races fair, clean and wins well.
Vettel is a rare talent, perhaps the best of his generation. When you consider his success has been against people like Alonso and Hamilton, Kimmi and Button, it's not like he did not have anyone good to beat.
It simply baffles me why some people just can't bring themselves to see Vettel is a great champion. You don't have to like him, but there is no denying his success or his talent and determination. Last season would have completely broken most drivers, but instead Vettel is only three points behind the leading Mercedes and ahead of the other one!
I can't believe you people have me cheering for a damm Ferrari now!
I can't believe they have me cheering for a dog-blasted McLaren. :rolleyes: ;)
Interesting that Doc rates Vettel's 12 c'ship win, and hadn't mentioned 11. I on the other hand, don't rate 12 at all. To me, 12 is purely a reflection of the superiority of the RB, and emphasise to me that the season is too long. I rate 11 as his best win. Because he had the best car, and he drove accordingly. This was reflected in a dominant season. 10, and 12 in particular, are seasons which highlight the overall superiority of Alonso, despite not winning those titles.
Doc Austin, great post. I couldn't have said it better myself. And it's great that you bring the list of the major scandals, such as cheating allegations or championship deciding wrecks, that should have tainted the careers of some of the "greats" in F1 racing (but somehow have not, since we still call them greats..). On the other hand, Vettel was able to win pretty cleanly even the closely contested championships, like in 2010 and 2012, without championship deciding crashes, or other antics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
In my opinion, right now there are only two blemishes on Vettel's otherwise great racing career. First is the constant allegation that we were not treated to a good intra-team battle between Vettel and someone else. Some people argue that Webber was past his peak after 2010 and could not have responded to Vettel adequately. Others say, that Webber was simply crippled and beaten into submission by the team. Whichever is the case, the fact remains that Vettel had little competition from his teammate, while Prost and Senna had to breath down each other's necks many times in the race. The second is the bizarre 2014 season, which still needs some explaining. But then again, look at one of the other "greats" of our time, Hamilton. Didn't he lose to Button in 2011? There was no explanation from Lewis about that either.
All in all, these are two relatively small blemishes on an otherwise pretty fine record record so far.
Maybe some championships were fought to the very last race because the driver in the dominant car was not that dominant himself.
Or may be the opposite was true? Perhaps Vettel pushed the car above and beyond its capabilities in 2010 and 2012 if you happen to judge the car performance by what Webber did with it? People who argued that Alonso drove his Ferraris beyond what they were meant to do often insisted on using as Massa's results as the yardstick of where Ferrari should have really finished. Why can't this same argument be applied to Vettel in order to explain how Vettel drove his RBR car so that he extracted the impossible 110% of its possible performance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Ben
I think this argument will never end. One side will say that the glass is half full, the other will say that the glass is half empty.
But if you say that the glass is half empty, why stop at Vettel? Let's also throw Button under the bus, as well as Mansell, with his Newey designed 1992 car, at least a couple of Schumacher's titles, Prost's 1993 title, and who knows what else.
I admit that it certainly MAY have been possible that Vettel's RBR was a better car than Alonso's Ferrari, but only in the second half of season, when the teams had figured out how to use the 2012 spec tires. However, towards the end of year, it was also pretty obvious that McLaren was the superior car at the end of season. Fernando and Seb were fighting for something like third and second place at best most of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman racer
Oh, we are going through this again.:p:
Admittedly 2010 wasn't a very strong season by Vettel, it contained a number of mistakes and he was still green as a driver. However, it was a weird year in which all title contenders made mistakes and this somewhat balanced the game. Plus Vettel had reliability issues and lost about 3 wins that year, which made the points closer.
2012 was a better season for Vettel, especially the second half of the year. Perhaps Alonso was slightly more impressive overall, but I was pretty satisfied with Vettel's performance that year. He also had to come back twice from the back of the field (Abu Dhabi, Brazil), so it is not like title was handed to him on a silver platter - he had to fight for it, at times even against odds. Also 2012 was the year in which driving standards were very high, certainly more-so than 2010. In 2012 also Hamilton had an excellent year, but now it was his turn to lose something like 3-4 race wins with reliability issues.