Farage v Clegg - EU debates.

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

the "caste", as the indignant bolivarian revolutionaries in Spain ("We can") call them :andrea:

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Just a bunch of guys (and gals) who are ultimately people like you and me. Problem is their circle becomes ever more closed, detached from reality and less efficient at what they are doing. But when they hear they've partying more than enough they don't wanna stop and look around. Instead they start speaking about "populist", "far right", "far left" etc. These are meaningless terms to me, most likely describing somebody who for whatever reason dares challenge the current bunch.

News in the papers yesterday about Farrage having a long standing affair with his secretary ,all they all at it ?

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Well maybe idiots is a bit strong, but I certainly think that people who have voted UKIP are misguided and foolish or perhaps ignorant because of the lack of reasoned debate about the EU.

I don't believe that many UKIP voters are aware of the core values of the party.

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That makes me misguided, foolish and perhaps ignorant then ;)

I am well aware of the UKIP values thank you and I perused all options available to me before voting. There is a need for change and I personally find Farage sincere. What you see is what you get with him, and that resonates with people.

For UKIP to win the European Election shows that we can't all be foolish and ignorant - that is probably left for you, foolish and somewhat ignorant for classing everyone who voted UKIP as such.

At least you didn't accuse the UKIP voters of being racist...which some hardcore lefties seem to think.

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Originally Posted by henners88

That was just one example I used at the lower end of the scale. The conversation was about benefits and the drain on the economy so I am hardly going to discuss skilled foreign contributors because I had already stated I have no problem with that. Doctor's, engineers, company directors from Poland, or Eastern Europe working in the UK don't generally claim benefits. You picked out one sentence and made an assumption without using the context of the discussion. I said repeatedly I have no problem at all with immigration as long as it contributes to the economy and isn't abused because it offers free living.

Countries like Canada, Australia and America have stricter rules on immigration and I think the UK needs to take note of this. If a person offers absolutely no value to the UK, then what is the incentive to support them for free? We have created the problem which I also previously admitted. I hope you now understand :)

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Spot on Henners. Labour with the War Criminal Tony Blair caused this problem in 1997 when they got in power. They opened the floodgates and gave out ridiculous benefits so they would get more voters.

I think Farage comes across as sincere right now but he is a politician. They all promise the world before they get into power but at the end of the day are all feathering their own nests in the long term. While I agreed with some of the pledges UKIP made concerning immigration, I couldn't vote for them because the more important policies would royally screw people like me if they got the vote. I agree with Jon that they got the protest vote in Europe mainly because they pushed immigration as their buzz word. All the other policies that would affect the lower middle classes with higher income tax, scrapping maternity/paternity pay, and scrapping the entitlement for annual holiday to name but a few, these may have been lost on the honest working individual IMO. I was driving through Merthyr Tydfil yesterday and UKIP posters are everywhere. I really don't know what people think they will offer them that may make them better off? Surely it is area's like this that will lose out? They may come down hard with certain aspects of immigration, but when then we have to live with the consequences of living with an even more tax hungry government who are dead against rewarding hard work. It all seems massively contradictory to me.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I was driving through Merthyr Tydfil yesterday and UKIP posters are everywhere. I really don't know what people think they will offer them that may make them better off? Surely it is area's like this that will lose out?

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Quite.

If people in South Wales who have benefited more from the EU than any other part of the UK vote for UKIP then it shows how idiotic the situation is regarding anti-EU propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

That makes me misguided, foolish and perhaps ignorant then ;)

I am well aware of the UKIP values thank you and I perused all options available to me before voting. There is a need for change and I personally find Farage sincere. What you see is what you get with him, and that resonates with people.

For UKIP to win the European Election shows that we can't all be foolish and ignorant - that is probably left for you, foolish and somewhat ignorant for classing everyone who voted UKIP as such.

At least you didn't accuse the UKIP voters of being racist...which some hardcore lefties seem to think.

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How can you find Farage sincere? He can promise the world because it is quite unlikely that he'll ever become an MP, never mind PM. But the man who claims to be a 'man of the people' and to have worked in 'business' for 30 years is really just a posh boy who was previously a banker in the City.

It is now evident that Jean-Claude Juncker will be the next president of the EU commission.

It will be integresting to see Cameron's reaction.

Looks very likely that when we do get a referendum the vote is more than likely to be "Britain should leave the EU"
The man in the street,the workers,the voters can see no benefit from being a member of the EU ,and the 50 Million a day that we pay into it. And Labours view that Nissan and Toyota would leave ,as Ford have already moved most of it's production abroad ,is not true ,they receive far too many conn cessions to pull out of the UK

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-28069366

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UKIP leader Nigel Farage said there was a mood within the EU that it would rather get rid of the "friendless" UK than allow it to start "picking apart treaties".

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that leaders viewed Britain as "a damned nuisance" that was "always complaining".

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:wave: :devil: :andrea:

If we are disliked as much as we want to leave, what's the hold up?

ask your unelected leaders? :p :andrea:

I've lost the battle over Juncker but not the war, says Cameron

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...s-Cameron.html

A detail: The outcome of the battle was a 26 - 2 defeat :p:

What I don't understand is the whining about unelected leaders, lack of democracy and shedding powers to the EU parliament...
Juncker is the leader of the most voted party (bit like Cameron himself :laugh: ), the member states agree his nomination 26-2 (!), and what better place than the parliament of democratically elected MEPs to shed EU powers to?

If you can't be constructive then it's about time you get on yer bikes and deal with the EU from the outside :andrea:

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Originally Posted by driveace

Looks very likely that when we do get a referendum the vote is more than likely to be "Britain should leave the EU"

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I agree, if the Tories win the next election and there is a referendum I think we will leave.

I also think that among the British business and political elite there is an incredible level of complacency regarding popular opinion about EU membership. Many people here in London I speak to in the banking, legal or other business fields simply refuse to accept there is any chance that the British will vote to leave. After all the British population could simply not be stupid enough to realise the benefits of remaining in the EU right? What next? Voting to have all the oxygen removed from the atmosphere?

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Originally Posted by driveace

The man in the street,the workers,the voters can see no benefit from being a member of the EU ,and the 50 Million a day that we pay into it. And Labours view that Nissan and Toyota would leave ,as Ford have already moved most of it's production abroad ,is not true ,they receive far too many conn cessions to pull out of the UK

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Its not Labour's view, its the CBI and that of much of industry. It would be naive in the extreme to expect much more investment from outside the EU if Britain is outside the free trade area, after all the cost of paying import tax into the EU would have to be factored into the cost of investment which would make the UK far far less competitive than it already is. Banking would simply decamp to Frankfurt or anywhere else within the EU that makes them welcome.

Any negotiation with the EU for our relationship with it once we leave would be dictated to us on their terms, not ours. We would lose any existing goodwill and could end up with unbalanced trade agreements. We would have to re-negotiate all the trade deals the EU has made on our behalf with other countries, that is assuming they will be interested in spending diplomatic resources talking to a country with a mere 60 million inhabitants.

The arguments for remaining within the EU are self-explanatory. What I find baffling is that no-one is making the case for it. The right wing supposedly pro-business press refuse to discuss it, the left wing press don't want to either, presumably because the argument is too capitalist orientated for them. None of the political parties except the Liberals are prepared to explain the pro-EU arguments and the Liberals are hopeless at it. As far as I can see only the Economist has been brave enough to tackle the issue head on, but I don't think too many of the right kind of people read it...