The fall of McLaren

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Originally Posted by anfield5

I don't really see what the issue is. Having the occasional bad year is par for the course with McLaren. They have always gone up and down, then up again. I don't see any reason why this will not be the case this time.

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Indeed. A one-off, bad engineering decision during the per-season break. And past mid-season, it was really pointless to continue developing or changing car that represents and end of the era technology that will not be used next year. They won't lose their sleep over losing the 4th place in the WCC. Staying in front of Force India is good enough under these circumstances. Past 2014, McLaren will be effectively Honda's works team as God intended. The rivalry with Mecedes will be crazy. Have you guys already heard the rumor that Ross Brawn is talking to Honda?

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

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Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

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Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

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100% agree. I would actually tell them to take a hike and shove it where the sun don't shine!

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

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Originally Posted by Mark

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

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Is Honday going to be bank rolling the engine development themselves are are McLaren stumping up the cash to bring Honda in?

If it is the former, McLaren need to be very wary of them. But if McLaren are paying then there shouldn't be a problem.

I remember in the early 90's Porsche said they would not return to F1 unless a team paid for the engines and development costs themseves. Arrows took them up on the offer and the engine was an over-weight under-powered pile of crap.

I like Jenson, I do. But i have a strange feeling that it isn´t all about the car.

I

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

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I don't agree with that at all. Honda acted more honourably than any other manufacturer pulling out of F1 that I can recall. They gave Ross Brawn the championship winning car and some walking around money to run it. They basically paid for Ross Brawn to win the championship under his own name and got none of the credit themselves.

That car was not fast just because of one trick. Other cars had the same thing at the start of the season. That car was fast because Honda had spent a year and a billion dollars developing it.

Toyota and Williams.

In the first few races Toyota wasn't really that much slower. The big difference was the Mercedes powerplant.
If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

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Originally Posted by Koz

Toyota and Williams.

In the first few races Toyota wasn't really that much slower. The big difference was the Mercedes powerplant.
If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

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True, the strength of Brawn was the excellent chassis combined with the excellent Mercedes engine. If they'd remained as Honda then Brawn would have had a good year, but Red Bull would have won.

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Originally Posted by Mark

Seems to be a bit of a theme with F1. That a manufacturer decides that F1 is too expensive and pulls the plug, then a couple of years later returns - Renault for example.

Honda have been in and out of F1 a few times, can't decide if they want to own a team or make engines, not to be trusted.

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Honda is not erratic. Honda and other manufacturers have already made the "decision". The issue is that it's not really the decision. It's an algorithm. What do you do if you want to put your new engine into a great car? You give it RedBull in 2014 or to McLaren in early 2000s. Oh wait. The timing is wrong. Those teams already signed with a different engine manufacturer. What do you do then? You give the engine to a mid-field team? Ain't going to work. Besides the engine, you probably need to pump a lot of money into this team. This is something that a lot of companies are not comfortable doing. At this point, they would rather just buy the whole team. They don't want to trust a run out of the mill potentially incompetent mid-field team with the engine AND tens of millions of money. So this is why they feel far more comfortable taking over the whole team.

When Honda wanted to return in 21st century, the top teams were not "available", so they bought former BAR team and made it into Honda team. When Renault wanted to return, Williams was already a BMW shop, so Renault was forced to buy Benetton and setup a "Renault team". When BMW's relationship with Williams started to unravel, they tried to buy Williams, then bought Sauber instead. It seems like like setting up a factory team is a losing game. It's much better to leave this job to the professionals. Ford, Toyota, BMW, and Honda did not achieve much in the last decade. Mercedes took over McLaren for 15 years but had limited success (1 constructor title, 3 driver titles, and one big scandal). Only Renault did well as a factory team it seems. However, having figured out that running a successful F1 team is stupid expensive, Renault sold off its factory Renault team as soon as they got into a cozy relationship with a front running team, RedBull.

Honda has timed its current return to F1 very well. McLaren is no longer owned by Mercedes, but McLaren still buys Mercedes engines in order to compete against the Mercedes team. This is not a good position to be in for McLaren. Besides, McLaren probably thinks that a team of their caliber deserves not to pay exorbitant prices for their engine. The biggest mistake Honda made was to quit F1 after 1992. McLaren became a Mercedes shop and after that Honda was forced to fend for itself. Right now is a good timing to start supplying the engine to McLaren. I wish they didn't hesitate so long, and started supplying the engine in 2014. I hope this signals the return of the old Honda, the Honda that not only wins GPs, but also builds great road cars, like Acura NSX, Integra, and Honda S2000.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Hadn't heard that personally, but I did hear he was likely to leave Mercedes. Would be an interesting decision for McLaren and Honda to have someone like Ross on board.

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Didn't Honda leave Ross and Nick with all the dirty work of laying off staff when they (Honda) pulled out in 2008.

Sure, they bankrolled the Brawn team in '09, but not before pulling the rug from under their (Ross etc)'s feet.

Had it not been for the fact that Ross & co found the DD concept, they'd've been bombay ducked!

So, if I were Ross, unless they are digging VERY deep with the pay-cheque pockets, I'd not touch 'em with an extended barge pole.........

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I disagree. Honda acted honourably. If you want to see an example of a car company doing everything possible to destroy the team they wanted to abandon look at BMW. Refusing even to register the team for entry into F1's next season for example, and trying to sell the team to a bunch of fraudsters.

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Originally Posted by Koz

If Honda remained with their engine, it would have been Newey's year.

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Debatable. Honda and Renault observed the engine freeze completely. Mercedes and Ferrari hadn't and their engines improved gradually leaving the other two behind.

For 2009 both Honda and Renault were allowed by the FIA to upgrade their engines to match that of Ferrari and Mercedes. We don't know how good the Honda engine would have been but it wouldn't have been as far behind the Mercedes as the 2008 powerplant was. Also Brawn couldn't develop the car through the 2009 season, in fact development slowed down dramatically from late 2008. If Honda had stayed in place development would have continued throughout the pre-season and the season itself...

BTW the deal with McLaren runs for around 10 years and spans many areas of which F1 is only one. Honda aren't going to pull out at short notice this time.

Even with the car they got now, a place on the podium in some race could have bee achieable during the year.

It´s sad, this was my favuorit team many years.

I do think if a Lewis, Kimi, Seb or Fernando was driving that car a podium may have been achieved this season.

Anyway Jenson is a good guy and if he can have a decent car next year he may have one final hurrah to try and win a race or two.

Is McLaren's fall due to a driver like Hamilton, who either brought speed? technique? Or is it due to the team losing engineers and mechanics?

I guess my question is - is it the car or the driver that makes it go fast?

Undoubtedly the car is slow because the team is failing to design a decent car, but I was just pointing out that the currant two drivers are probably the reason McLaren may go through a season with no podium.

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?

Blast all this nonesense. I'm only disapointed in McLaren because I have the Mercedes lump in FGP, plus I have Perez :barf: ;(
and if McLaren didn't kinda really suck this year I'd have ended up in the top 5! :dork:

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?

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For me Button has always been a solid driver, a guy who will score consistent points. However getting a car to his liking is often a tough task. He doesn't adapt like other drivers and I feel this costs him and his team dearly. Jenson is the type of driver you want as number 2, not leading your team. Perez lacks consistency do this is far from the title challenging duo McLaren really need IMO. Losing Lewis hurt I am beginning to think.

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014. Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

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I think their problems run a lot deeper than that. A decent driver wouldn't hurt their cause though.

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Originally Posted by henners88

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

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I think their problems run a lot deeper than that. A decent driver wouldn't hurt their cause though.

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Yes and yes. The car is obviously not up to scratch and while button is a decent driver, the like of a Lewis, Alonso, Seb etc would bring a bit more to the team.

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014.

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That's a smart move. Every front-running team should get at least one Red Bull engineering ;)

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Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

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Was there any reason to believe that McLaren was still developing the 2013 car past mid-summer? I am just glad they still put enough gas into that turd of 2013 car.

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I can agree with that. Is Button a decent driver who just got lucky in 2009?

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Any driver who gets to drive a championship winning car got lucky, because he gets helped by something outside of his control. Having said that, I think Button is a top notch driver but quite underrated. He won GPs in 5 different chassis built by three different teams, made a successful transition to from Brawn to McLaren car in 2010, and decidedly beat Hamilton in 2011. Even before 2009, he scored numerous podiums and one win for Honda.

I think an Alonso & Button line up would be very strong, especially with a decent car. Alonso to challenge for the title and JB is always consistant and can bring a car home for points.

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Originally Posted by zako85

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

I read that McLaren are getting a Red Bull engineering for 2014.

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That's a smart move. Every front-running team should get at least one Red Bull engineering ;)

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Maybe that will help in the design phase.
Is there any word on McLaren working on the '14 car and stop any work on the '13 car?

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Was there any reason to believe that McLaren was still developing the 2013 car past mid-summer? I am just glad they still put enough gas into that turd of 2013 car.

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I completely concur with this. They have single-handedly landed me last in FGP. The Wooden Spoon is almost mine!

Alonso back at McLaren gives me a boner. Have to admit, for him to win it there in 2015 and beating Hamilton at Mercedes would be a dream scenario. Prodromou there as well as Honda and Brawn would be killer.
Alonso ties Ham in points in '07, then avenges his spoil 8 years later (geez, has it really been that long ago???? :erm:

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Originally Posted by kfzmeister

(geez, has it really been that long ago???? :erm:

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I know. Its unreal how F1 seasons go by. :crazy:

The years have flown by but when you look at how both Alonso and Hamilton have evolved as drivers, it seems like a lot of time has passed to me. They are still chasing another championship, however they've maintained their status and appeal on the grid. It's luck of the draw though, they could have a decent car next season for all we know at this point. :)

In 2007 and 2008 I was sure by now they both would have 1 more championship each. Shows what can happen.

Very little, if anything, in competitive sport remains static.

Every team, which is only as good as the sum of its parts, is dependant on the parts to add up to a succesful sum.

McLaren have suffered, from a variety of reasons, a talent-drain in recent years.

As Ferrari have shown, you don't just replace like-for-like.

It may well be that a new recruitment drive, will bring McLaren back to the front.

Or it could be that it is on a downward trajectory that is irreversible.

Or it could just be a bad year.

Ask me again in 16 years. That's how long it took the original Lotus to go.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

In 2007 and 2008 I was sure by now they both would have 1 more championship each. Shows what can happen.

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I expected McLaren and Ferrari to be competing at the front of the grid for a number of years, not just 2. Just shows how quickly f1 can change and if you'd have said Red Bull would be producing the best car for 4 years straight, I wouldn't have believed it. I also wouldn't have put any money on Hamilton leaving McLaren back then. The problem McLaren have is they've lost one of the most talented drivers of this generation and now have nobody in the drivers seat to push the car that bit further. In 2012 they produced a car that on paper was good enough to win the championship, however it was devastatingly unreliable and the team made catastrophic errors at vital moments. Button couldn't deliver in a car his team mate was putting at the front and McLaren need a driver now who is not fussy and can extract that bit extra. Losing Hamilton is a big chunk of their problem, but backwards development is now the sticking point IMO.

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I'd expect Alonso to appear back there in 2015, with Hulkenberg or somebody similar - Di Resta maybe, or even Vergne.

I have a feeling 2014 will be Button's last at McLaren, possibly in F1, due to the weight rules. And I can't see Perez lasting beyond 2014, he may even leave at the end of this year.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

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I think 2014 will be a pretty open season, considering the total change in regs and the cars. I expect the racing at the front to be closer than we've seen over the last few seasons.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

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I think 2014 will be a pretty open season, considering the total change in regs and the cars. I expect the racing at the front to be closer than we've seen over the last few seasons.

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For the good of the sport long term I hope you are right. I don't say that because 'my favourite' isn't winning, I say it because I genuinely feel interest has dropped off over the past 2 season's and I don't want another 2004 slump. As long as the racing gets back to being close and there is at least some intrigue over who might win, I think that will restore interest. It would be nice to see a surprise at the front in terms of a driver who isn't yet rated as a top pilot too. I, like many others I assume are now looking towards 2014 as a year for something new. :)

I'd be surprised if much changes.

2009 was a rarity, partially due to the intensity of the 07 and 08 title battles taking up more and more resources of the top two teams of that era. That is something that isn't the case in 2013.

2005 was more down to Renault & Michelin hitting the sweet spot in their design philosophy and Bridgestone producing duds to nullify Ferrari, but the Renault/Michelin combination had been on the rise before then.

1983, when there was a huge change in regulations, changed nothing. The front teams were Brabham, Renault & Ferrari. Hardly a changing of the guard. Williams lost out due to the rise of the Turbo's, but that was hardly a new phenomenon in 83, it had been coming for 4 years.

Sorry to be the party pooper, but the cream always rises.

I for one don't expect a major change, and certainly don't expect a left-field, Brawn style challenger.

Mclaren's issues almost certainly go deeper than one iffy design, and that sort of issue is nearly always made worse by major regulation changes.

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Originally Posted by Bezza

I doubt McLaren will be particularly competitive in 2014. I think 2015 will be a big year for them, and they could dominate with the right group of people from there on.

I'd expect Alonso to appear back there in 2015, with Hulkenberg or somebody similar - Di Resta maybe, or even Vergne.

I have a feeling 2014 will be Button's last at McLaren, possibly in F1, due to the weight rules. And I can't see Perez lasting beyond 2014, he may even leave at the end of this year.

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I do hope you are wrong. Perez is a good (if somewhat raw) driver, he didn't luck into the results he had last year with Sauber. Given a decent car he will win races, lets not blame a driver for having to peddle an absolute dog of a car. As for JB, I think you are right about next year maybe being his swan song. If he does leave McLaren I don't see him driving anywhere else in F1, I would love to see him in sports car racing, his driving style would suit it. As far as I can remember JB signed a long-term contract with McLaren that tied him to the team beyond his driving career.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

They really need Fernando Alonso, ASOAP!!

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He can't design cars.

Or calibrate wind-tunnels.