Homophobia

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

Mhmm, food for thought...

Perhaps you're not such a "c-word" after all... :p :cheese:

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Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Zico

No, not at all.. it would just be better if there was no issue to arise in the 1st place.

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That will only happen when homosexuality is completely normalised, which it is in the minds of many but not, clearly, all.

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Originally Posted by Zico

I'm from the west coast of Scotland where men are men and the woman are often even manlier. As a teenager at high school in the 80's early 90's we had an extremely effiminate classmate who was bullied day in day out, the ribbing, bullying and practical jokes he had to endure can only be described as evil. It got so bad that he soon left for another school. I'm not sure what happened to him after that but he wasn't a very strong person mentally and I'm not sure he would have been able to cope with it continuing throughout the rest of his school years.
To see or envisage my son going through similar at school (If he was gay) is a thought that makes me shudder... is that an irrational fear?

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Yes, I think it is, not least because what you describe occurred quite some years ago, and in that period attitudes really have changed.

Want this sort of prejudice, where it still exists, to stop? In that case, it must be tackled head-on, not put to one side.

Firstly In the evolution of Life the most useful combination in a species is Male + Female as that makes the next generation.

However due to a Genetic & Hormonal inbalance some Genders are Gay.


The way I feel is that it doesn't matter one bit if someone is straight or Gay. It is something that happens a natural ? (Cant think of the word), but no one can do anything about which way they turn out.

So why some people seem to resent people for being gay is beyond me.

All that matters is how good a person you are.

As for Incest as discuss earlier. I think as long as they are both adults and take a responsibilty to not reproduce (as Genetics can cause problems) then peope should be able to do what they like.

Also Gay people should be allowed to adopt or use IVF. For adoption I am sure there are may loving gay couples that would make much better parents than some of the hetrosexual couples I see allowed to have children. As for IVF, as soon as Humans as a species discovered a way to control life there shouldn't be a ban on certain people using it.

The only thing that should be looked at is if the parents to be are decent people.

Also Zico. I can see your point of view, but rather than hope your children aren't gay, you should be hoping that the poor idiots that are bullying people get a life.


So a final thought.
People are made as they are by nature and should be accepted whatever their Race, sexual orientation or whatever else is. People should live their lives in peace respecting others wishes whether they choose to marry, have children or stay single.

Leave people alone and live your life.

Great thread ET, and so far great tolerance for opposing views from many here. I'm actually quite shocked as such a caustic subject for many would usually have been shut down by now. Thumbs up to Mark for reminding all of us to avoid the personal and discuss the issue.


For me homosexuality is something I understand as not a choice to most people. Similar to how I had sexual and/or emotional feelings towards the opposite sex, homosexuals experience those feelings towards the same sex. The same is probably true of a "true" bisexual person. Nobody told me to be straight, or told anyone else to be gay or bi. It is their natural human instinct, and from my understanding largely driven due to various hormone balances in a persons body.

The best man at our wedding was gay and a great friend to both me and my wife. This was in the 80's when much of the US was still opposed to gay rights and the existence of gay people in general. He was also in the armed services at a time when being homosexual would get you put straight out the door. He was also very flamboyant, something I usually can't tolerate much regardless of sexual orientation. But a good enough person that I could overlook that one trait I didn't care for.

As for our child, I hope she grows up to be her own person regardless of sexual orientation. I can at least understand what some are seeing as a homophobic view though. Here in the US I think we as a whole have become much more tolerant and open minded in regards to gay people. That being said I still think life would present more hurdles to a gay person than it would to a straight person. If my daughter realized she was gay I would help her overcome those hurdles, but I would still accept that her life might be harder than if she was straight. Being that no good parent want's a difficult life for their children, part of me might still wonder if her life could have been better or easier had she been straight.

Even when I was younger I had no problem with gay people, especially men. I figured the more gay men that were out there reduced competition for the women! :)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Yes, I think it is, not least because what you describe occurred quite some years ago, and in that period attitudes really have changed.

Want this sort of prejudice, where it still exists, to stop? In that case, it must be tackled head-on, not put to one side.

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I sincerely hope period attitudes really have changed. I know some teenage girls in my partners daughters class at high school have 'come out' and it is accepted there.. probably even considered trendy? Although I have suspicions that negative attitudes will still exist to a degree with the boys.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Great thread ET, and so far great tolerance for opposing views from many here. I'm actually quite shocked as such a caustic subject for many would usually have been shut down by now. Thumbs up to Mark for reminding all of us to avoid the personal and discuss the issue.

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And thumbs up to Mark for modifying the thread title! :cheese: It was originally something perhaps not entirely conductive to a good, serious discussion. :)

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Originally Posted by Zico

I sincerely hope period attitudes really have changed. I know some teenage girls in my partners daughters class at high school have 'come out' and it is accepted there.. probably even considered trendy? Although I have suspicions that negative attitudes will still exist to a degree with the boys.

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I think there still exists a huge difference between male and female homosexuality. Gay males are mocked, openly, and there is no point denying it. Society hasn't yet fully evolved to be accepting of difference, and I know several gay men who all have tales about bullying, difficulty coming out etc. It isn't right, but it is the case, and to pretend we're in a society where being gay isn't an issue would be naive andcounterproductive. If it was so normalised then things like a footballer coming out as gay wouldn't even be news, but it's massive news because it's still a massive deal.

As for lesbians, they seem to be much more accepted by society from what I've been witness to. There is gentle ribbing now and then, but no different to guys mocking other guys for getting off with an ugly girl or something. This gender divide is really interesting, and not sure why it is present, but lesbianism is definitely seen as far more normal and even trendy as you say. I know very few girls at Uni who haven't tried it at least once. I know no straight guys who have 'experimented'. Why the difference?

Guess it's not helped by the generally increasing sexualisation of society either.

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Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

Why the difference?

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That's an interesting question and, for the life of me, I can't come up with an answer.

Any suggestions?

Well from a female perspective, female gayness is not a threat to most males, therefore to them it is nothing to fear. If they meet a lesbian woman she is just 'off the list' like one of their male mates.

Gay men though present the apparent threat to other 'straight' males. Sadly the gender divide is due to the males who have fear of gayness. Women generally are not threatened by gay men or women. Not to say you do not get women who are actively homophobic I have met a few. But in general, we are more accepting of sexuality.

I think the being openly gay in school for males is beginning to be trendy. It doesn't seem too big a deal now in some areas of the UK at least. Bullying is now moving more towards other more subtle differences than sexuality, sad but true.

I think it comes from the male perspective on life, most 'straight' men seem to weigh up the sexual value of woman they meet. I guess the concept to a straight man that another man might be doing that to them, might just be something to do with it? On the other hand women are use to this, so it doesn't set off alarm bells when a man or perhaps occasionally another woman does it?

This may not be true but I would think on the whole its only men who except Lesbians more than Gay men. We all know why that is with the modern computer culture.

I am not sue women would be that fussed.

Difficult to phrase without sounding weird, but bascially men as a whole probably fantasise more about Lesbians than men or women do about gay men.

Just a consideration. I may be wrong just an idea

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Originally Posted by Sprocket

Well from a female perspective, female gayness is not a threat to most males, therefore to them it is nothing to fear. If they meet a lesbian woman she is just 'off the list' like one of their male mates.

Gay men though present the apparent threat to other 'straight' males. Sadly the gender divide is due to the males who have fear of gayness. Women generally are not threatened by gay men or women. Not to say you do not get women who are actively homophobic I have met a few. But in general, we are more accepting of sexuality.

I think the being openly gay in school for males is beginning to be trendy. It doesn't seem too big a deal now in some areas of the UK at least. Bullying is now moving more towards other more subtle differences than sexuality, sad but true.

I think it comes from the male perspective on life, most 'straight' men seem to weigh up the sexual value of woman they meet. I guess the concept to a straight man that another man might be doing that to them, might just be something to do with it? On the other hand women are use to this, so it doesn't set off alarm bells when a man or perhaps occasionally another woman does it?

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This is IMO exactly why gays are less tolerated in society than lesbians. The fact that us men "know what we are like" when we see women, especially good looking ones! And the fact that other men could possibly be doing that to us is a bit strange....

My mates brother is gay, although I swear he is lying just so he gets all the girls :D

Ps I know that last post may have been a bit controversial, but this is just my opinion of course ;)

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Originally Posted by tfp

Ps I know that last post may have been a bit controversial, but this is just my opinion of course ;)

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I think you have it, perhaps not the bit about your mates brother ;) I've known some quite 'aggressive' lesbians in my life, I use to work in a field where for some reason there was a very high proportion of lesbians. Some were very 'blokey' in their attitude to other women they fancied. So in a way straight men just related to them as being the same as them so accepted it. The same guys though see the gay guy as very much, not the same as them. As a women I'm already use to blokes being blokes, so when a woman is a bit or a lot like that, it's no big deal. It's like a total reversal of perspective between the genders.

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

Homosexuality is not the same difference as fans of different football clubs or political sights. It is antinatural sickness, degeneracy. No different than pedofilia, necrofilia, family-filia etc.

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May I ask if you do any of the following?

a) wear clothing
b) drink cow's milk
c) have ever flown in an aeroplane

How about a thought experiment. I'm not for a moment wishing it upon you, but let's say you are stricken down with an illness that will prove terminal unless treated. Do you accept or refuse treatment? Are you willing to stand fully behind your anti-natural viewpoint in every aspect of day to day life, or does it just serve as a useful flag to justify things you dislike anyway?

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

Difficult to phrase without sounding weird, but bascially men as a whole probably fantasise more about Lesbians than men or women do about gay men.

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I think you're spot on with that. You can guarantee a lot of the men who are very anti-gay will have hard drives full of lesbian pornography at home. I think a lot of men feel threatened by the thought of the homosexual act itself not for any physical reason (you can bet they'd partake if their wife/girlfriend requested it...), more by the fact to be on the receiving side of the equation is a submissive gesture, which doesn't play well with a lot of the macho male image society has drummed into us over generations.

I don't mind Slowsons opinion at all. It's refreshing to have someone that is honest in their views even though they fly in the face of what is considered acceptable. We complain when the forum is too sanitised yet some want to silence contrary opinions :confused:

So no, I won't condemn his post but would rather understand it better.

Also, I perfectly understand Zico. I have 2 boys and a daughter. I would prefer they grow up heterosexual as that's what I am. I would also prefer they support England Rugby, McLaren and Spurs but if they don't, then I won't love them any less. I suppose we all cast a shadow and hope our offspring share the same values.

Just human nature I suppose?

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Originally Posted by SlowSon

Homosexuality is not the same difference as fans of different football clubs or political sights. It is antinatural sickness, degeneracy. No different than pedofilia, necrofilia, family-filia etc.

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Words fail me. That is all.

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

I've been thinking a lot, over the past few minutes, about homosexuality and all that it entails and provokes.

The most interesting aspect of it all seems to be homophobia. What provokes it? Is it at all rational or only emotional?

This is what I would like to discuss with you, dear fellow forumer, because I'm bored and have nothing better to do. ;) :D

What's your attitude to gays, and homosexuality in general? More interestingly, why do you think you have this attitude?

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People with certain intellectual level have always been afraid of everything which is different from what they think is normal.
You can add religious indoctrination to the list as well.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Words fail me. That is all.

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You're not the only one.

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Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

As for lesbians, they seem to be much more accepted by society from what I've been witness to. There is gentle ribbing now and then, but no different to guys mocking other guys for getting off with an ugly girl or something. This gender divide is really interesting, and not sure why it is present, but lesbianism is definitely seen as far more normal and even trendy as you say. I know very few girls at Uni who haven't tried it at least once. I know no straight guys who have 'experimented'. Why the difference?

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First thing that springs to mind is the difference in the sexual act.
I might be wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I don't mind Slowsons opinion at all. It's refreshing to have someone that is honest in their views even though they fly in the face of what is considered acceptable.

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Why is it 'refreshing'? I don't know anyone on here who isn't honest in their views, no matter what they might be. In no way do I consider his contribution refreshing.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

I have 2 boys and a daughter. I would prefer they grow up heterosexual as that's what I am.

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In more detail, why the preference?

I am not a father, so I dont really have that parental instinct so I dont know how it would feel, but maybe it is just a wish to see your children have offspring of their own and continue the family tree.

The whole proccess of Life (as a whole) is to continue the species and pass on your genes.

Could be that.

As for me, I look at the world and see overcrowding and think as of now, I may prefer to help control numbers by not having children. Who knows though. I often wonder why it is that people see this as a strange view.

Afterall we are all allowed to decide our own reasons and lives.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

The whole proccess of Life (as a whole) is to continue the species and pass on your genes.

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Really? Seems a rather narrow, soulless definition to me.

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Originally Posted by steveaki13

As for me, I look at the world and see overcrowding and think as of now, I may prefer to help control numbers by not having children. Who knows though. I often wonder why it is that people see this as a strange view.

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Fair enough, but I don't see sexuality as really coming into this. After all, it's not a choice.

When I say Life. I mean Life (animals, plants, fungi) The whole existance of life is to continue the species.

I do not mean Life as in a persons Life. As the individuals choice is to do whatever they wish. travel, love, learn.

There is a difference.


My second point you highlighted was just a point that people should be left to enjoy, make decisions and live there life as they choose. Not directly about Homophobia

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Also, I perfectly understand Zico. I have 2 boys and a daughter. I would prefer they grow up heterosexual as that's what I am. I would also prefer they support England Rugby, McLaren and Spurs but if they don't, then I won't love them any less. I suppose we all cast a shadow and hope our offspring share the same values.

Just human nature I suppose?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

In more detail, why the preference?

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Surely you can understand this, you seem like a smart man! In no way is being gay 'worse', but I want my children to love motorsport, want them to be successful and likewise want them to be straight. If not then as Knock-On says I won't love them less, but it's just personal preference because that's what I am and it'll make us have more in common etc. It's like saying I hope they support Arsenal cos all of the people round here support Arsenal and if he becomes a Spurs fan he'll be mocked, possibly bullied - likewise you hope someone is straight because that's the norm in society and will give them an easy life. If though they are gay then it makes no difference, just makes their life a bit harder (rightly or wrongly) due to small-minded individuals around.

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Originally Posted by ioan

First thing that springs to mind is the difference in the sexual act.
I might be wrong though.

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Very true, there is a huge difference in the imagery of both - and one bing more 'delicate' and less penetrative perhaps explains why it is more accepted.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/imag...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Dave B http://www.motorsportforums.com/imag...post-right.png
Words fail me. That is all.

Posted at 17:39 my local time:

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're not the only one.

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Posted at 17:46 my local time:

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Originally Posted by ioan

First thing that springs to mind is the difference in the sexual act.
I might be wrong though.

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I think the failure failed. :p :

What I want to know is why a person who is a follower of any of the world's major religions (all of which condemn homosexuality) have to tolerate being called a hater because of those beliefs? My religion provides me a code of behavior yet also demands that I not be judgmental. Some here may think that notion is inherently paradoxical, but I don't think so. I think a person may reject such an act (in their heart) yet not be guilty of judging others.

Frankly, labeling someone as "homophobic" is a brilliant tactic to try to control & judge others. It cuts no ice with me, but over time I see how the liberal elite have attempted to quell any discourse by exploiting this term.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Why is it 'refreshing'? I don't know anyone on here who isn't honest in their views, no matter what they might be. In no way do I consider his contribution refreshing.

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I think what Knock-on is saying is that the conversation would be duller if everyone agreed. And since many people hold SlowSon's view anyway, isn't it good that one such person actually has the guts to come out with it, so it can be discussed?

Am I right Knockers? :p

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

What I want to know is why a person who is a follower of any of the world's major religions (all of which condemn homosexuality) have to tolerate being called a hater because of those beliefs? My religion provides me a code of behavior yet also demands that I not be judgmental. Some here may think that notion is inherently paradoxical, but I don't think so. I think a person may reject such an act (in their heart) yet not be guilty of judging others.

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I think the problem is that many religious people not only follow their code of conduct (which is fine IMO), but also demand that others follow it (which isn't fine IMO), and vocally condemn any dissent from what they think is right. In the extreme, they actually hate those who do something they consider wrong, and therefore the "hater" label is appropriate.

Of course, this doesn't apply to all religious people, and the reality that all religious people tend to get painted with the same brush is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

Frankly, labeling someone as "homophobic" is a brilliant tactic to try to control & judge others. It cuts no ice with me, but over time I see how the liberal elite have attempted to quell any discourse by exploiting this term.

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Well, the evil liberal elite of your country isn't here - as far as I'm aware - so you're free to discourse. ;)

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Originally Posted by Starter

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Originally Posted by Dave

Words fail me. That is all.

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Posted at 17:39 my local time:

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Originally Posted by ioan

You're not the only one.

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Posted at 17:46 my local time:

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Originally Posted by ioan

First thing that springs to mind is the difference in the sexual act.
I might be wrong though.

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I think the failure failed. :p :

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Any chance you could clarify? I can't really get the point you are trying to make.

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Originally Posted by EuroTroll

I think what Knock-on is saying is that the conversation would be duller if everyone agreed. And since many people hold SlowSon's view anyway, isn't it good that one such person actually has the guts to come out with it, so it can be discussed?

Am I right Knockers? :p

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Pretty much old son.

Personally, I find Slowsons opinion completely contrary to my own but it's good that he feels empowered enough to state it. He must know he would be condemned for his post but without contrasting opinions, it would be a fairly hopeless thread.

There are quite a few Slowsons out there that might not want to admit their personal opinion on an open forum for fear of being slated. We have all come across these people who in 'civilised' company are tollerant and plausible but whose personal opinions are somewhat less reasoned. Even people on here who are not Homophobic may feel reluctant to make a contribution in case they get labled as such.

So, when I say I would prefer my children to be Hetrosexul, it's because that's what I feel. I am making no claim that it's because I want Grandchildren, or that I would be worried about them being bullied. As far as I'm concerned, I cant see any reason why Gay couples can't adopt and wether a child is a biological descendent or adopted matters not a jot to me. As long as the child is well cared for in a happy home is all that matters. Similarly, the bullying point is moot as well. As a parent, it is up to me to ensure that my relationship with my child is an open one where views and worries are discussed and explored. If my child is being bullied, I would know about it and work with the school to identify the source of the bullying and ensure it's addressed.

So, there is no practical reason why I would prefer my children to be Hetrosexual so that must mean I'm Homophobic then? Err, no. I wouldn't dream of treating anyone differently because of their sexuality just as I wouldn't if they were black or whatever. I really do struggle with why we treat people differently when we're all basically the same. The only real difference between us is our personality which is what defines us.

So, when it comes down to it, its just personal opinion. I would 'prefer' it. It is my 'preference'. It's not to say I would treat them any different if they were gay but if they are not, I wouldn't be upset.

Much more of a dissapointment is that the little tossers support Arsenal. Ho hum. So much for preference :(

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Really? Seems a rather narrow, soulless definition to me.

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If reproduction was not the purpose of life, it would not have been made an intensely pleasurable process, surely? I mean, who'd bother otherwise?

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Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

Surely you can understand this, you seem like a smart man! In no way is being gay 'worse', but I want my children to love motorsport, want them to be successful and likewise want them to be straight. If not then as Knock-On says I won't love them less, but it's just personal preference because that's what I am and it'll make us have more in common etc.

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No, I don't understand this, because it again implies some sort of difference between gay and straight people that doesn't exist. I don't consider that I have more or less in common with anyone as a direct result of my sexuality.

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Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

If though they are gay then it makes no difference, just makes their life a bit harder (rightly or wrongly) due to small-minded individuals around.

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Again, my experience of reality is completely different. My life has been no harder, nor easier, as a result of being gay.

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Originally Posted by ioan

People with certain intellectual level have always been afraid of everything which is different from what they think is normal.
You can add religious indoctrination to the list as well.

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This is what I mean when I discuss the liberal elite--labeling others as afraid (or hateful) in an attempt to control.

Certainly, there are members of my religion (Christianity) who have been guilty of being judgmental, and I do not condone that either. They would be better served if they had adopted a Golden Rule or "love they neighbor" ethos while being permitted to make their case (and allowing others to make theirs).

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

If reproduction was not the purpose of life, it would not have been made an intensely pleasurable process, surely? I mean, who'd bother otherwise?

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People do have sex for reasons other than to procreate, you know.

This notion that there is one overriding purpose to life I really find most odd.

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

This is what I mean when I discuss the liberal elite--labeling others as afraid (or hateful) in an attempt to control.

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Or, perhaps, it's just what they feel. My views on the subject are in no way intended as an attempt to control — they are my genuinely felt beliefs. Those who moan about the 'liberal elite' trying to stifle contrary views are, in my view, only perplexed or even unsettled the manner in which society has changed and come over time to deem certain things acceptable that once were not.

Do you not feel that homophobia as a concept exists, or should be considered to exist?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

People do have sex for reasons other than to procreate, you know.

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Yes, because it is pleasurable to do so. Would they have sex if it were not pleasurable?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yes, because it is pleasurable to do so. Would they have sex if it were not pleasurable?

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Clearly not. What is your point?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Clearly not. What is your point?

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That we appear to be the only species who have sex recreationally, because it is pleasurable. Perhaps, as beings able to rationalise and with our intelligence, we could not be relied upon to reproduce were there not an incentive....

Animals reproduce instictively, and yet population of animals appears to be naturally controlled.

It is only the 'superior' species - i.e. us, that seem unable to control ourselves.