another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by Dave B

Seems this nutjob used weapons legally held by his mother. US gun controls simply do not work, they make it trivially easy for lunatics to arm themselves. Still: freedom blah blah blah.

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I am imagining that anthonyvop is taking a brief break from this thread to go and celebrate his freedom by taking potshots at a Union flag.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Its been said before but if you live in a society where guns are common; if you are attacked or burgled, the chances of the individual carrying a gun is higher. If you live somewhere like the UK or somewhere else where gun ownership is restricted, then the chances of getting attacked with a fire arm is rather slim.

My house has a burglar alarm even though there hasn't been a burglary on my estate for over 5 years and that instance didn't involve an occupied premises. I live in a pretty safe area and I'm not generally a paranoid person where I think about remote possibilities or what ifs. Burglars don't tend to carry guns here, of course that doesn't mean there have never been armed robberies here either. Another common example would be If I got into an argument whilst driving (road rage) the chances are the other person won't pull a gun on me lol. I think we just have very different societies and its always going to have a clash of opinions because one country is full of citizens that feel they need guns for protection and the other really doesn't have the problem.

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I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

The road rage reference hit home, as it was just up the road from me here that Kenneth Noye stabbed a chap on the Swanley roundabout in such a moment of rage.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

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As ever, fear of crime — including knife crime — is greater than is the risk of crime itself.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

As ever, fear of crime — including knife crime — is greater than is the risk of crime itself.

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Agreed - I lay a big portion of the blame of fuelling that fear at the media.

Fact is that an easy fast solution does not exist.
On this end we are seeing more of a public outcry for the federal government to actually come up with a plan.
The fact that it was children (and of course that these events are becoming ever more often) has made the public reactions more emotional and people are upset.

What will happen? - who knows . . . . As an optimist I do hope that this is an opportunity to do something that will actually make a difference and begins the road to change.

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates

20 children don't "live" freedom do they? For them the concept of freedom is worthless.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

Fact is that an easy fast solution does not exist.
On this end we are seeing more of a public outcry for the federal government to actually come up with a plan.
The fact that it was children (and of course that these events are becoming ever more often) has made the public reactions more emotional and people are upset.

What will happen? - who knows . . . . As an optimist I do hope that this is an opportunity to do something that will actually make a difference and begins the road to change.

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates

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There was a panorama or Dispatches program a while back over here about the gun ownership bill or whatever in the States. The vested interests and political shenanigans was quite an eye opener.

Is there the will from the government to spurn big corporations/money by changing these gun laws? It does I think become more complicated with the vested interests and how they differ state to state too.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

20 children don't "live" freedom do they? For them the concept of freedom is worthless.

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We can only hope that their deaths will not therefore be in vain, and a fundamental change is begun.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

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Given that the USA is hardly a lawless hell-hole, one can only place the blame for this on paranoia.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

There was a panorama or Dispatches program a while back over here about the gun ownership bill or whatever in the States. The vested interests and political shenanigans was quite an eye opener.

Is there the will from the government to spurn big corporations/money by changing these gun laws? It does I think become more complicated with the vested interests and how they differ state to state too.

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I don't know much about it, I know it exists and I know that it is a very powerful lobbying entity.

The NRA
*check out their video
NRA

I dont get this,these guys who are dissatisfied with their lot ,go into a school armed up to the hilt,even wearing body armour,with guns legally owned by his mother (And why does he mother need all the guns that she legally held ?),and shoot inocent children.I have to say they are crazy and they are cowards,but if you are not happy with your lot,why not jump under a train,but cowards dont do that do they?What about those 20 children who went to school to learn how to be educated,be with thier friends,and enjoy life,and the 40 parents that are now disraught at losing the children they have loved ,protected ,natured,and thought would outlive them ?All his victims were shot more than once,and six were teachers !We have again witnessed a sick individual,the same as we did in the UK at Dunblane,and I have been to the cemetary in Dunblane and can imagine the pain these parents went through.Lets all pray that these children in Connicticut did not die in vain

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Originally Posted by Roamy

well try the train bombing and BTW is an adult life better to take??

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You are complaining a terrorist attack to a psychopath shooting children in a school? And then you are surprised that we don't take you seriously.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

As I said many times before. The rights of the individual supersede those of the state. I have a moral right to be able to protect myself, my family and my property. Nothing as criminal and immoral as a government disarming the public will stop me from exercising that right.

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As we say: Hope dies last.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

The road rage reference hit home, as it was just up the road from me here that Kenneth Noye stabbed a chap on the Swanley roundabout in such a moment of rage.

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Well, at least he didn't stab 27 people.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Agreed - I lay a big portion of the blame of fuelling that fear at the media.

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Don't forget the politicians, they are the main culprit who starts what the media writes/shows about.

For this saying the US should ban guns outright, that is a pure fantasy. Repealing an amendment is very difficult and in the current climate of the country, near impossible. It is just not going to happen. So rather than going over the right to guns debate here for the zillionth time, how about ideas that could really make a difference? Ideology arguments on this is not going to make any difference.

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Don't forget the politicians, they are the main culprit who starts what the media writes/shows about.

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I think recent events have shown sections of the media to be laws unto themselves, quite honestly. Perhaps more to blame are the consumers who lap it all up.

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Originally Posted by DBell

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

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Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable. Your comparison is certainly laughable. But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

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Originally Posted by DBell

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable.

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And that would have stopped what would have happened yesterday, would it? Of course not, because the gunman would have shot the person at the security check. Schools are supposed to be nice places for children to be, not high-security fortresses. If you want to address the problem, stop madmen getting their hands on guns so depressingly often. There's your answer.

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Originally Posted by DBell

Your comparison is certainly laughable.

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No it's not. Your suggestion is absurdly draconian; so was mine.

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Originally Posted by DBell

But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

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Just because ideology and beliefs — which I thought were quite important to how we live our lives — may take you out of your depth doesn't make this true for all of us.

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Originally Posted by DBell

For this saying the US should ban guns outright, that is a pure fantasy. Repealing an amendment is very difficult and in the current climate of the country, near impossible. It is just not going to happen. So rather than going over the right to guns debate here for the zillionth time, how about ideas that could really make a difference? Ideology arguments on this is not going to make any difference.

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

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Great, turn schools into fortified prisons, it will be easier and cheaper then getting rid of an idiotic amendment. Right?
Well the whole US has been fortified against the outer world with walls and laws which the rest of the world finds laughable. Now you want to start fortifying everything inside the US and add to the already reigning level of paranoia that has been instated during the last 20 years or so.

Getting rid of the guns is the way to go if you really want to get rid of these shootings, hell even the world shooting that you all use to describe these events is pointing to the problem. How many more people have to die before you brainwashed zombies finally get the point?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I think recent events have shown sections of the media to be laws unto themselves, quite honestly. Perhaps more to blame are the consumers who lap it all up.

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Yep, but you can't outlaw stupidity.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

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It just goes to show how incrusted in the US citizen's thoughts is the idea that they are constantly in danger and that they absolutely need guns to protect themselves.
IMO they have got to the point where only huge catastrophes can change their 'minds'. A rather sad state of things.

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Originally Posted by DBell

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable. Your comparison is certainly laughable. But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

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Sure sure, you are right and everyone else is wrong because they do not agree with running around armed to the teeth and with being checked every time they enter a building.
Can you imagine the time it would take kids to get in their classrooms every morning due to having to be checked one by one at the entry to their school?!
Do you want kids to grow up with the idea/reality that security checks everywhere are a part of their normal rights?
You call this freedom?!

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Originally Posted by ioan

It just goes to show how incrusted in the US citizen's thoughts is the idea that they are constantly in danger and that they absolutely need guns to protect themselves.
IMO they have got to the point where only huge catastrophes can change their 'minds'. A rather sad state of things.

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The sad truth is that, in relation to this particular debate, the sense of danger leading to the perceived need for the possession of firearms seems only to be furthered by huge catastrophes. It's self-perpetuating. I cannot imagine being in a state of mind involving such paranoia.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates

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This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.

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Originally Posted by TyPat107

This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.

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Paranoia: there is no other word for it.

If gun control was ever going to be increased in the US it would have already happened. This event, sadly, won't make a difference just as the many that preceded it didn't make a difference.

The US has a dependency on guns in the same way that a smoker has a dependency on tobacco. Going cold turkey is far too hard and likely to fail. A better solution is to ween the addict off their addiction. Does the sacred cow that is the Second Amendment prevent the government from placing extremely high taxes on guns? Use economics to lessen demand by making guns so expensive that their sales drop. People will still have the right to bear arms, they just won't be able to afford to do so. Maybe even use the taxes collected to fund gun buy-back schemes and soon enough the number of guns in the country will diminish.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

Race the problem is much deeper that guns. If you take the guns they will use explosives like in the middle east and parts of EU. First check in all of these horrific events should be a thorough investigation of drug usage especially meth. Remember Race guns are banned in Mexico - 60,000 dead because we want drugs. I hope we get a very good report on this cowards background.

I pray for the families

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Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

Guns are for killing, simple as that. Maybe someone can explain to me why nearly half the population of the USA feel the need to kill.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

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I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them
with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids. Are the parents to blame?? i also did some serious gun training and they never bothered with firearms except of a 410 shotgun for hunting birds and even that was
very rare. I would think hours and hours of violent video games are not healthy for our children. The industry hides behind freedom of speech and parent look the other way

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Originally Posted by Roamy

I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids.

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Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

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WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Guns are for killing, simple as that. Maybe someone can explain to me why nearly half the population of the USA feel the need to kill.

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The problem is that most law abiding citizens would rather be the shooter than the shootee

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Originally Posted by ioan

You are complaining a terrorist attack to a psychopath shooting children in a school? And then you are surprised that we don't take you seriously.

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wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

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Originally Posted by Roamy

WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

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All this does is further a climate of security paranoia. It does nothing to tackle the underlying problems. The attitude that increased security is a cure-all I find immensely troubling and depressing, to say nothing of the way it has been blindly accepted, as demonstrated by your remarks.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

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No, there was clearly a problem before those people died. Otherwise, they wouldn't now be dead.

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Originally Posted by Roamy

I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them
with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids. Are the parents to blame?? i also did some serious gun training and they never bothered with firearms except of a 410 shotgun for hunting birds and even that was
very rare. I would think hours and hours of violent video games are not healthy for our children. The industry hides behind freedom of speech and parent look the other way

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I am sure The research has already been done by our own Army and their game "America's Army." It is the entire purpose is to recruit and train underage americans for a future in the armed forces. If it didn't work I don't see the US gov funding through 3 versions over from 2002 to the present.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.

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Absolutely. How discussions of who to apportion blame to after massacres always come back to video games, instead of, say, access to mental health services is completely ridiculous.

Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone

An article about the Colombine shootings, by Marilyn Manson. Still poignant.