Driver and Donkey of the British GP

very good: Webber and Alonso
good; Massa and Kimi.

bad: Pastor and Koba.

About the latter. That chop in the pits was horrible, I feared for the pitcrews life there.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

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Why is Sergio more of a donkey?

Sergio gave enough room to go wheel to wheel into the corner.

It was Pastor who lost it towards the apex so he is arguably more of a donkey for misjudging the grip available after coming out of the pits.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

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Yeah, DON'T overtake on the outside is the rule.

Oh, unless you are JV, then, hey, that's just fine and dandy, init tho?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Yeah, DON'T overtake on the outside is the rule.

Oh, unless you are JV, then, hey, that's just fine and dandy, init tho?

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That reminds me of James Hunt's lecture to Mario Andretti that "we don't overtake around the outside in F1" after this:

[youtube]uNg6IvrIHbk[/youtube]

Of course you can overtake on the outside .

You've got two guys going into a corner , and both want to come out the other end of it in front .
Both are under not only the regular pressure of competition , but also belong to underdog teams where they are being questioned for non-performance , so want desperately to do well .
You are nearing the end of the race .

Maldonado's not the first misjudge the inside line , and Perez is not the first to try going around the outside risking that the inside man could slide into him .
Both had every right to race each other .
They were side by side .

Maybe you're right , wedge , although he did have a little more room to try to skirt the issue of a car he was holding to a tighter line , if he hadn't given up the attempt to defend , from sliding into him .
I will allow them both to be little donkeys , up until Sergio got in front of the mic .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Which , brings us neatly back to that guy almost everyone is donkeying .

Sergio knew well that Pastor wouldn't give in , and he drove into the path of the bullet .

That , in my eyes , makes him more of a donkey here than Pastor .
Maybe Pastor's a donkey for misjudging the move , but he's just a little donkey .
Bigger donkey is Sergio , for thinking little donkey would not be as stubborn as a big donkey .
And , Sergio becomes a bigger donkey when he explains afterwards that he knew this particular little donkey was more stubborn than all the other donkeys .

Those calling for Pastor to be replaced will be disappointed , as he's doing a good job in their eyes , if you believe what they say , and what they seem to be telling him , from what he says .

Now , there is pressure on both Sauber drivers to perform , as the car is seen to be quick .
Nice deflection , Sergio .

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Finally someone posts what I've been thinking.

If Pastor is such a disrespectful dangerous idiot why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?

As for Sergio he's been making some odd comments lately. After his podium in Canada he claimed he was happy for the team as Sauber hadn't scored any points since his last podium in Malaysia. I thought this was odd and looked it up, of course Sauber had scored points but Sergio hadn't. I guess Kobayashi drives for a different team then...

Then before Silverstone he claimed that Sauber just HAD to improve its qualifying performance because he'd failed to break into Q3 for several races. Again I guess Kobayashi drivers for a different team because he's been doing just fine in the other blue and white car....

I had heard on the grapevine that Ferrari were going cool on him because his head has been growing too big lately and he's a difficult guy to work with. I'm starting to believe that.

As for the incident, Pastor lost his rear for a bit on cold tyres which went straight into Sergio. Wasn't a deliberate move or a particularly outrageous mistake either. Sergio shouldn't have been so close to him.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?

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Ummmmmmm, because it is a race, and because a pass was legitimate, and because others had made that pass.

If not, lets just pack up and not bother.

To suggest that Sergio is donkey of the race and to defend Pastor for what is essentially a duplicate of the move he pulled on Hamilton in Valencia is absolute hogwash!
In neither instance did he attempt to correct his steering towards the left to avoid a collision. We have seen his deliberate moves on Hamilton at Spa and Perez at Monaco. He is dangerous and should have been banned for his thuggish driving style for at least a race. They have been to lenient on him. It's time!
Driver of the race: Webber.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

If Pastor is such a disrespectful dangerous idiot why place yourself on his outside entirely at his mercy so you can be taken out by him?
.

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Cant say I agree, why would any driver have in the back of his mind "I dont want to go near him, I a frightened he will crash into me" and simply let him past without fighting for position?

What are the rules for rejoining the track? Pastor needs to have more respect and sportsmanship for other drivers when rejoining the track, F1 would become more dangerous if everyone did this, and this isn't what F1 needs.

I thought Kobayashi was a bit of a donkey. Some great moves throughout the race, but at other times erratic on track and of course bowling over his pit crew. Maldonado just had the one mistake, a pretty clumsy error but I wouldn't look into it more than that. However he needs a few clean weekends.

I am a bit disappointed by Lotus and Sauber, both capable of more points than they achieved. I would like to see more race winners this season, and if Lotus just gets everything right (or at least incident free) then they have a good chance of winning.

Drivers of the race are Alonso and Webber.

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Originally Posted by tfp

Cant say I agree, why would any driver have in the back of his mind "I dont want to go near him, I a frightened he will crash into me" and simply let him past without fighting for position?

What are the rules for rejoining the track? Pastor needs to have more respect and sportsmanship for other drivers when rejoining the track, F1 would become more dangerous if everyone did this, and this isn't what F1 needs.

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Actually drivers can and do alter how they overtake depending on who they are overtaking. They know different drivers have different personalities, some will cave in, others are likely to make a mistake. Some drivers are extremely harsh but very fair, others are fully prepared to risk a collision, rules and fairness be damned. Overtaking Trulli is an entirely different prospect from overtaking Webber or Schumacher for example.

Taking account of this is part of racing, or should I say intelligent racing.

Now Sergio made clear that everyone in the paddock thinks that Pastor is utterly crazy and disrespectful. I'm inclined to agree with him. If Sergio knew this however, why did he choose a particular place and method to overtake that required Pastor to behave absolutely like a schoolboy in order to pull it off?

Of course on paper Sergio is 100% in the clear but regardless he scored 0 points as a result of the coming together which he could have avoided had he gone about it a different way.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Sergio was very controlled and mature in his criticisms of Pastor. He didn't call him silly names, or lose his temper. His criticism was frank, but fair in light of the situation. Not everybody wants a PR robot to be interviewed, and we should enjoy this rare glimpse of passion shown by a driver who felt his race was ruined through Pastors loss of control. Lets not forget it was only Monaco where Pastor swerved off the racing line and across the front of Sergio's wing in an obvious act of frustration to which he was punished. He did the same thing to Hamilton at Spa in 2011, so has shown a tempremental element when edged out or beaten. This was a trait many disliked about Schumacher and Pastor needs to learn quickly as modern F1 doesn't tolerate such behaviour.

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I agree, and IMO without Kimi being extra careful with Maldonado on a couple of occasions, we would have at least two more collisions by now.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

As for Sergio he's been making some odd comments lately. After his podium in Canada he claimed he was happy for the team as Sauber hadn't scored any points since his last podium in Malaysia. I thought this was odd and looked it up, of course Sauber had scored points but Sergio hadn't. I guess Kobayashi drives for a different team then...

Then before Silverstone he claimed that Sauber just HAD to improve its qualifying performance because he'd failed to break into Q3 for several races. Again I guess Kobayashi drivers for a different team because he's been doing just fine in the other blue and white car....

I had heard on the grapevine that Ferrari were going cool on him because his head has been growing too big lately and he's a difficult guy to work with. I'm starting to believe that.

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Same could be said of Alonso.

"Renault don't support me enough"

"It was me who found sixth tenths"

"I'm the number one driver or else I'll tell the whole world you're cheating"

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Originally Posted by Malbec

why did he choose a particular place and method to overtake

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Take advantage of the the situation before the tyres got upto temp. Intelligent driving, except for Pastor of course......

Malbec

Sometimes you make great sense and then???

You may go into a corner and think; "he might bottle it" or "he wont compromise" but you don't think " I wont go for this otherwise this ****er will take me off for trying.

Thats the old Schumy era and it won with Hill but the FIA decided to say enough is enough after Jacques and they will with Pastor. He needs to sort himself out and pronto.

Mind you, when your sponsors py £30m for your seat, you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

You may go into a corner and think; "he might bottle it" or "he wont compromise" but you don't think " I wont go for this otherwise this ****er will take me off for trying.

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I'm not suggesting that Perez shouldn't have overtaken Maldonaldo but subtleties seem to get lost in this forum.

I'm saying he shouldn't have overtaken in the manner he did, hugging the Williams on the outside so any mistake by Pastor would have resulted in contact between the two. Either he should have gone somewhere else or given Pastor more room and as Sergio's outburst later showed he damn well knew that there was a big risk of Pastor doing something silly (deliberate or accidental). It was an unnecessary risk in a situation where Sergio stood to win some points at the end of the day.

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Whiting states that: “Any driver defending his position on a straight and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his” (emphasis as in original document).

“Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.”

Whiting goes on to define the term “significant portion”, stating that this applies if the car attempting to pass gets any part of its front wing alongside the rear wheels of the car in front.

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FIA issues new clarification on defensive driving - F1 Fanatic

I wonder what made Chuck think the rule needed clarification? :dozey: :p :

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Originally Posted by Malbec

I'm not suggesting that Perez shouldn't have overtaken Maldonaldo but subtleties seem to get lost in this forum.

I'm saying he shouldn't have overtaken in the manner he did, hugging the Williams on the outside so any mistake by Pastor would have resulted in contact between the two. Either he should have gone somewhere else or given Pastor more room and as Sergio's outburst later showed he damn well knew that there was a big risk of Pastor doing something silly (deliberate or accidental). It was an unnecessary risk in a situation where Sergio stood to win some points at the end of the day.

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Malbec , sometimes you make great sense , and then you agree with me . Hee hee .

The way I see it , Sergio could have gone that little bit wider , and left a little more room for Pastor .
If he had , the likelyhood was , that Pastor would have left the corner , tail-happy , and Sergio would have had him easily , as his opponent would have lost his momentum .
If Perez really believes what he said about Maldonado , he would have waited for a better moment .

Simply , when taking advantage of a guy with cold tires , whether he be the most or least trusted of your opponents , it is a questionable act to put your vehicle in the way of a potential slide .

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Originally Posted by Dr Giacomo Rappaccini

FIA issues new clarification on defensive driving - F1 Fanatic

I wonder what made Chuck think the rule needed clarification? :dozey: :p :

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This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo....

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Originally Posted by kfzmeister

This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo....

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When joking it is helpful if you use an emoticon. Some people may take you seriously. ;)

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The governing body's Charlie Whiting issued a directive to the teams at the British Grand Prix after concerns were expressed on a number of occasions that certain drivers were defending in an over-aggressive manner.

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FIA clarifies defensive driving guidelines*

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Originally Posted by kfzmeister

This clarification is in direct relation to the two aggressive moves Rosberg made in Bahrain against Ham and Zo....

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I stand corrected :dork:

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The ruling comes after several controversial incidents this year in which drivers have vigorously defended their positions and in some cases forced challenging rivals off the circuit.

One of the most publicised of these cases came at the Bahrain Grand Prix when Nico Rosberg of Mercedes robustly defended his position from attacks, or attempts to pass, by Lewis Hamilton in a McLaren and then Fernando Alonso of Ferrari.

Both challenging drivers felt aggrieved at the way in which Rosberg moved his car to defend his position, forcing them to run wide and in Hamilton's case off the circuit completely.

The race stewards investigated the incidents at the time and took no action because it was said that no "significant part" of either Hamilton or Alonso's cars was alongside Rosberg at the time./
The clarification means also that Rosberg can rest easy because in both cases in Bahrain he defended his position without breaking the rules.

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Short version of the above. Fred and Lewis did some crying that Nico didn't just move over for them. :D

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Originally Posted by henners88

In hindsight both drivers should have pulled to the side of the track and thought long and hard about how they were going to take the corner. Sod trying to do it at 130mph side by side and arcing each other, take their time and consider all the outcomes. :p

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The marshalls should be on hand to make a pot of tea - maybe some scones, clotted cream and jam as well? ;)

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Originally Posted by henners88

In hindsight both drivers should have pulled to the side of the track and thought long and hard about how they were going to take the corner. Sod trying to do it at 130mph side by side and arcing each other, take their time and consider all the outcomes. :p

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Clearly some people here have never even sat into a kart not to mind a proper racing car. Another more quality driver like Alonso or Hammy would not have done this. You can't be making allowances for other drivers erratic behavior in F1. You see a gap you must go for it. You have to assume that since they are in F1 they are of a certain quality. Maldonado, unfortunately, bought his way into F1 and has the look of a driver that is quite far from the finished product. He's moderately talented but combining this with him having no brain is just a recipe for disaster. I said after Monaco last year and his coming together with Hamilton that it wouldn't be the last of these kind of accidents that he we see involving Pastor and I was correct. I'm sure there will be more to come as well.

Sergio went to overtake legitimately. Pastor, unintentionally, lost the car and ran into him. Pastors fault. Everything else - smoke and mirrors.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

You can't be making allowances for other drivers erratic behavior in F1. You see a gap you must go for it. You have to assume that since they are in F1 they are of a certain quality. Maldonado, unfortunately, bought his way into F1 and has the look of a driver that is quite far from the finished product. He's moderately talented but combining this with him having no brain is just a recipe for disaster.

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So F1 drivers must assume that other drivers are good enough even when they know they're not?

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Pastor, unintentionally, lost the car and ran into him.

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Yeah, i can see what you're saying. After all, his move on Hamilton at Spa, on Perez in Monaco and his move on Hamilton in Valencia all were unintentional as well. He sure makes his own bed!

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Short version of the above. Fred and Lewis did some crying that Nico didn't just move over for them. :D

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I thought it was pretty reckless. I mean Hamilton has been criticized for that sort of driving. Alonso, ....well he just doesn't drive like that.

In my view, this last Maldonado vs Perez crash was another racing incident. Both drivers chose to drive aggressively, but without breaking the rules IMHO. There was plenty of space for both cars. Then Maldonado lost his car. The fact the Maldonado lost the car in the turn was what caused the contact. I don't think either driver should have been punished. Was it smart for Maldonado to push his car to the limits this way? Probably no. This was an unsound judgement call. I think he will learn with more experience to avoid such calls, or perish. Running on fresher tires he still had a good chance to catch up with Perez, if he let Perez overtake at first.

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Originally Posted by Malbec

So F1 drivers must assume that other drivers are good enough even when they know they're not?

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"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

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Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

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I'm well aware Senna answered that to Stewart as I'm sure is everyone. The point is, that you need to go for a gap if it's there otherwise you'll never get by. Saying that it was Perez's fault because he chose to attempt an overtaking maneuver on a guy he knew might clash with him is absolutely ridiculous. You don't get to F1 by holding back pussy footing around hoping the other guy makes a mistake. You get to it by seizing every opportunity. Sergio was not wrong to attempt to overtake Pastor. Pastor was not wrong to defend but it was Pastor that made the mistake while doing this due to his lack of ability. You never know when the driver in front is going to run out of talent so you take your opportunity to get by as soon as it presents itself regardless of whether or not he is an idiot otherwise you're just stuck behind him indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

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Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Senna answered this to Stewart, as he tried to defend his multiple clashes with Alain Prost. Senna was a great driver, but sometimes he did unforgivable things and came with pseudo-wise crap like this.

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It was specifically in answer, having been questioned by Stewart about the McLaren team mates coming together at Suzuka 1989.

This of course, as we all know, was when Balestre suggested drivers double back if they go into the escape road to avoid disqualification.

1990's collision at Suzuka, was due to Balestre's favouritism to Prost by moving the pole spot....

Nice try though! ;)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

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To suggest they both were going for the same gap hints that a third party was involved....

Shergar?

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Saying that it was Perez's fault

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Black and white thinking again?

Did I say it was Perez's fault?

Any interpretation of the regulations would find that collision was merely a racing incident or Maldonaldo's fault and that Perez was not at fault. But we're not talking about black and white, right and wrong here. I'm asking whether it was a wise decision or not which is a very different matter entirely, and your very own posts eloquently explain why it wasn't wise, in fact it was a rather stupid move on Perez' part.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Sergio was not wrong to attempt to overtake Pastor. Pastor was not wrong to defend but it was Pastor that made the mistake while doing this due to his lack of ability. You never know when the driver in front is going to run out of talent so you take your opportunity to get by as soon as it presents itself regardless of whether or not he is an idiot otherwise you're just stuck behind him indefinitely.

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And do you do that by placing yourself exactly where you would be taken off by the driver in front if/when he runs out of talent?

Was that a wise move do you think?

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

"If You No Longer Go For A Gap, You Are No Longer A Racing Driver" - Ayrton Senna!

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Except that Senna never lived by this rule. Nor did any other driver you can classify as a true great.

Truly great drivers know when discretion is the better part of valour and when to really go for it.

Those who live by Senna's maxim have short careers littered with shards of carbon fibre, usually their own.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .

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That's quite a "gap" he went for! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sergio went for that gap , and had every right to do so .
Pastor did , too , and also had every right to do so .

Both are racing drivers .

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Well really, once one car is in the space (in this case Sergio) the gap no longer exists, thus the other driver can't go for it. This is what causes the collision, going for a gap that no longer exists! :)


In this case racing incident, but I don't think Pastor even tried to make the corner very hard. He was jumping into the already closed gap to try to defend IMO, and did it a bit late.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

Well really, once one car is in the space (in this case Sergio) the gap no longer exists, thus the other driver can't go for it. This is what causes the collision, going for a gap that no longer exists! :)


In this case racing incident, but I don't think Pastor even tried to make the corner very hard. He was jumping into the already closed gap to try to defend IMO, and did it a bit late.

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According to Pastor , he lost the front end , and then the back .

If he hadn't lost either , and had managed the grip he needed , there was space left inside .

If that had happened , we might all be lauding the brave effort of the young Mexican , daring to drive around the outside of a driver on cold tires .

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Originally Posted by henners88

I hope something more exciting happens in the next race, we need a new thread and discussion topic pronto :eek:

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Thanks for your contribution to this discussion . Great insight .