Sutil will stand trial in a German court later this month

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Ask Adrian Sutil. They're his words. He's the only one who can answer your question.

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Why the hell are you so aggressive?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Why the hell are you so aggressive?

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:laugh: I do apologise ioan. Perhaps I could have worded it better.

I'd suggest, Bagwan, that you ask Adrian Sutil because they're his words. He's the only one who can answer your question.

FORMULA ONE - F1: Hamilton 'Pathetic' Says Sutil's Angry Father
(We need to see the video)"lewis liegate 2 ?"

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Sutil's father.

As for Hamilton's role in the affair, having sat alongside Sutil in the Shanghai nightclub at the time of the alleged assault, Jorge Sutil is blunt.

"It's really pathetic," he said.

"Lewis Hamilton moved to Monaco and didn't tell Adrian his new phone number. But he often called him if he had personal problems.

"His father sent my son a message that he hopes everything goes well with the hearing. And Lewis Hamilton, the cause of the discussion, didn't do anything.

"I think my son chose the wrong friend," Sutil's father added.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Cause you would have been all flowers and kisses if you were to be convicted of assault?!

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But there's the catch, I haven't hurt anyone ;)

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Originally Posted by F1boat

But there's the catch, I haven't hurt anyone ;)

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That's the bottom line. Sutil obviously threw something at Lux, and he was punished for that. I'd understand some sort of "wrestling" but once a guy starts to throw glass or something at another person, that's actually quite serious.

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Originally Posted by CNR

We need to see the video

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Why? The court has. The court has also seen the witnesses it decided it needed to. It has examined the evidence and delivered a verdict.

Regarding the alleged situation of Hamilton's schooldays. Well, had he joined the fight, it may well have escalated - also depending, how he would have done that. But a school student can certainly search for outside help from teachers/grown ups/security officer (if there is one at school). It is better to do something instead of nothing at all. But this is not aimed at criticising Hamilton, because I haven't seen the situations.

having sat alongside Sutil in the Shanghai nightclub at the time of the alleged assault the video will show whether or not he committed perjury

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perjury


Criminal law the offence committed by a witness
in judicial proceedings who, having been lawfully sworn or having affirmed,
wilfully gives false evidence

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

That's the bottom line. Sutil obviously threw something at Lux, and he was punished for that. I'd understand some sort of "wrestling" but once a guy starts to throw glass or something at another person, that's actually quite serious.

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James Allen claims that he has seen the wound and described it as "nasty".

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Originally Posted by CNR

FORMULA ONE - F1: Hamilton 'Pathetic' Says Sutil's Angry Father
(We need to see the video)"lewis liegate 2 ?"

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What ?
Now he's a "pathetic coward" ?

We know as fact , that Hamilton was sitting right beside Sutil during this event .
Lewis says he saw nothing .

My read on this , since he's been called out , is that Lewis should have , from his close proximity to the event , been able to give some corroboration to Adrian about the amount of aggression shown by Lux prior to the problem .
Reported before the trial , we had heard that Sutil made an aggressive move , meant to toss a drink .

So , we know the pair were sitting down , and that Sutil was the aggressor .
But , exactly how long are Sutil's arms ?
If you think about the scenario , Lux must have been pretty close to have been in the range of the glass that cut him .

"You know I'm an F1 driver , don't you ?"(or something close to that) were Sutil's words just before the incident .
"You know I'm an F1 team owner , don't you ?"(or , again , something close) were Lux's words .

Short moments later , we had Lux in range to be cut on the neck , so there must have been a lunge forwards and down towards Sutil that accompanied the words in response .

Following that scenario , the seemingly most logical read on it , we should be able to conclude that Lewis would have been the only one other than Adrian himself , who could give an account of those final moments before the incident occurred .

Even in a crowded , loud nightclub , he should have been able to hear Lux's words , being that he was seated beside Adrian , and that Lux must have moved in close enough to have been struck in the neck .

But , Lewis says he saw nothing . Did he hear nothing as well ?


From the reactions of Sutil and his dad , he perhaps was the only one who could have testified as to exactly how aggressive Lux really was in the event .
If true , I understand the reactionary words "coward" and "pathetic" .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

What ?
Now he's a "pathetic coward" ?

We know as fact , that Hamilton was sitting right beside Sutil during this event .
Lewis says he saw nothing .

My read on this , since he's been called out , is that Lewis should have , from his close proximity to the event , been able to give some corroboration to Adrian about the amount of aggression shown by Lux prior to the problem .
Reported before the trial , we had heard that Sutil made an aggressive move , meant to toss a drink .

So , we know the pair were sitting down , and that Sutil was the aggressor .
But , exactly how long are Sutil's arms ?
If you think about the scenario , Lux must have been pretty close to have been in the range of the glass that cut him .

"You know I'm an F1 driver , don't you ?"(or something close to that) were Sutil's words just before the incident .
"You know I'm an F1 team owner , don't you ?"(or , again , something close) were Lux's words .

Short moments later , we had Lux in range to be cut on the neck , so there must have been a lunge forwards and down towards Sutil that accompanied the words in response .

Following that scenario , the seemingly most logical read on it , we should be able to conclude that Lewis would have been the only one other than Adrian himself , who could give an account of those final moments before the incident occurred .

Even in a crowded , loud nightclub , he should have been able to hear Lux's words , being that he was seated beside Adrian , and that Lux must have moved in close enough to have been struck in the neck .

But , Lewis says he saw nothing . Did he hear nothing as well ?


From the reactions of Sutil and his dad , he perhaps was the only one who could have testified as to exactly how aggressive Lux really was in the event .
If true , I understand the reactionary words "coward" and "pathetic" .

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The only things we know for sure are;

Sutil caused an injury to Lux.

Hamilton was in the same nightclub.

There is video footage.

Sutil Jnr & Snr are annoyed.

Anything else, without having been there or seen the video is mere speculation/press hype.

I don't think I'll lose any sleep over this 'brownian motion in a petri dish'

It's too bad that Sutil and Hamilton have now fallen out. But if Lewis felt that the only way he could help his "friend" was by lying for him, then maybe that's why he got out of appearing. Maybe if he had appeared and told the truth, that would have made it even worse (and we all know that Lewis can't tell a good lie to save his life). I don't know. But someone, who was a friend of mine, asked me to appear for him in court and I wouldn't do it. Why? Because the truth was, he was as guilty as sin. And I wasn't going to lie about what I knew. I don't know about the court where Sutil appeared, but here, you can easily wind up in jail for perjury. And I'm no longer friends with this individual either... for that and other reasons - but some people get bent out of shape if you're not willing to go down the tubes with them. Screw that!

Too bad for Sutil though. I rather liked him.

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Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

It's too bad that Sutil and Hamilton have now fallen out. But if Lewis felt that the only way he could help his "friend" was by lying for him, then maybe that's why he got out of appearing. Maybe if he had appeared and told the truth, that would have made it even worse (and we all know that Lewis can't tell a good lie to save his life). I don't know.

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This.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

This.

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This ?

He said he saw nothing .
Isn't it more likely that was the lie , and that appearing would have brought that to the attention of the press ?

Think about it .
Why would Sutil and his father call him a coward if the reasoning behind it was because he wouldn't commit perjury ?

And , having been called "pathetic" , and a "coward" , why would Hamilton not just come out and say it was because he would have been forced to lie to the court , and , therefore , didn't show ?
After all , the friendship is over .

Why not come clean ?

Still widely reported is that they were sitting beside each other , and a "war of words " was in full swing .
Perhaps this was really the issue that Lewis didn't want to face ; being caught in another lie .

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Why? The court has. The court has also seen the witnesses it decided it needed to. It has examined the evidence and delivered a verdict.

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Maybe, just maybe, some people have an opinion of their own, like you sometimes like to profess in the Chit Chat forum.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

This ?

He said he saw nothing .
Isn't it more likely that was the lie , and that appearing would have brought that to the attention of the press ?

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He didn't see Trulli either a few years back, nor did he see Massa on a few occasions last season, why would he see some less important stuff like too people havin' a fight right beside him?
Oh wait, he already threw some people under the bus in the past. :s

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Originally Posted by ioan

He didn't see Trulli either a few years back, nor did he see Massa on a few occasions last season, why would he see some less important stuff like too people havin' a fight right beside him?
Oh wait, he already threw some people under the bus in the past. :s

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http://cdn.head-fi.org/6/61/61fde76a_attachment.jpeg

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Originally Posted by ioan

Maybe, just maybe, some people have an opinion of their own, like you sometimes like to profess in the Chit Chat forum.

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By all means have an opinion, but the facts of the matter have been judged by a court.

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Originally Posted by ioan

He didn't see Trulli either a few years back, nor did he see Massa on a few occasions last season, why would he see some less important stuff like too people havin' a fight right beside him?

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ioan, were you there? Have you seen the CCTV footage? If not, how can you make such a statement?

I've said it before and I'll say it again — many of your remarks on the F1 forum make you look rather foolish, something you are emphatically not.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

This ?

He said he saw nothing .
Isn't it more likely that was the lie , and that appearing would have brought that to the attention of the press ?

Think about it .
Why would Sutil and his father call him a coward if the reasoning behind it was because he wouldn't commit perjury ?

And , having been called "pathetic" , and a "coward" , why would Hamilton not just come out and say it was because he would have been forced to lie to the court , and , therefore , didn't show ?
After all , the friendship is over .

Why not come clean ?

Still widely reported is that they were sitting beside each other , and a "war of words " was in full swing .
Perhaps this was really the issue that Lewis didn't want to face ; being caught in another lie .

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Or maybe because he was advised that he should avoid more controversy. You may note that Sutil is the only man who whines for help from Hamilton, the Renault guy remains silent - his ugly wound is evidence enough for his case. What should have Lewis said to please his haters - "Yeah, the Renault boy behaved badly and that's why my great friend Adrian tried to slice his throat, which is a chivalrous thing to do!". And BTW everybody here knows that I am by no means fan of Hamilton, au contraire, I can't stand his driving style which leaves damaged cars on the whole track, neither I am fan of his "I am the new Ayrton Senna" behavior. But enough is enough. Sutil let himself to be provoked and committed a dangerous act, which could have hurt the Renault guy very seriously. The court obviously took in consideration the fact that he didn't do it on purpose and that he was provoked, and that's why Adrian is not in prison. Lewis has nothing to do with his stupidity.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I've said it before and I'll say it again — many of your remarks on the F1 forum make you look rather foolish, something you are emphatically not.

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So what is the solution? The only way to 'improve' others is to show good gentlemanly behaviour by ourselves instead of shooting them down and going with personal attacks. :) I know you like to comment on Ioan, but it can certainly be done from different points of view - in a positive and thus inspiring fashion.

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Originally Posted by jens

So what is the solution? The only way to 'improve' others is to show good gentlemanly behaviour by ourselves instead of shooting them down and going with personal attacks. :) I know you like to comment on Ioan, but it can certainly be done from different points of view - in a positive and thus inspiring fashion.

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I think my reference to him being far from a fool is suitably positive and inspiring.

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Originally Posted by henners88

When the police attended the incident when it first happened, they would have got statements off everyone who witnessed the attack. Lewis offered a statement to the court when his lawyer contacted them after not actually being formally contacted by Sutil's lawyer, so I would say he offered as much information as he was obliged to do. I can't really see what is being debated here as we don't know fully what happened in the nightclub, or what Adrian is unhappy about? I also don't understand why this thread has gone in down the avenue of analysing Hamilton's part in all this? Pedro de la Rosa was also present with Lewis and Adrian and like Lewis he also declined to appear in court. I can understand there is some upset from Sutil because Lewis is his friend but in the context of this debate where some are trying to predict the events, then why not give Pedro abit of consideration too? Asking Lewis to 'come clean' regarding events which are unclear to us fans is abit silly IMO. He's preparing for a new season and doesn't need this distraction and I don't blame him for not explaining things that don't concern him at what is a very busy time for any driver on the grid.

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To answer your question: A thread is not a REAL thread until there is some proper Lewis bashing. You go through all the threads here and any opportunity the Lewis haters have they jump on it aside from one or two people whom are offering an objective opinion on it. Lewis has done nothing wrong but you'll always have those that will get on his case. This is the same with all great drivers of the past. People used to try to get on Schumacher's case too. It's just another thing Lewis has in common with the greats - he's the most talked about and controversial driver amongst fans :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by ioan

He didn't see Trulli either a few years back, nor did he see Massa on a few occasions last season, why would he see some less important stuff like too people havin' a fight right beside him?
Oh wait, he already threw some people under the bus in the past. :s

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Schumacher didn't see Villeneuve in 97, Hill in 94 or Montoya in Imola 04... and the list goes on.

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

Schumacher didn't see Villeneuve in 97, Hill in 94 or Montoya in Imola 04... and the list goes on.

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View your previous post, dear Sir.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

View your previous post, dear Sir.

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I'm aware of the inherent contradiction but I'm actually a big Schumacher fan. I'm not bashing him, I'm trying to point out ioan's bias to him and open his eyes a little so he can see that plenty of drivers, including Schuey, have used the "I didn't see him" excuse and sometimes it is just that, they didn't see.

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Originally Posted by henners88

When the police attended the incident when it first happened, they would have got statements off everyone who witnessed the attack. Lewis offered a statement to the court when his lawyer contacted them after not actually being formally contacted by Sutil's lawyer, so I would say he offered as much information as he was obliged to do. I can't really see what is being debated here as we don't know fully what happened in the nightclub, or what Adrian is unhappy about? I also don't understand why this thread has gone in down the avenue of analysing Hamilton's part in all this? Pedro de la Rosa was also present with Lewis and Adrian and like Lewis he also declined to appear in court. I can understand there is some upset from Sutil because Lewis is his friend but in the context of this debate where some are trying to predict the events, then why not give Pedro abit of consideration too? Asking Lewis to 'come clean' regarding events which are unclear to us fans is abit silly IMO. He's preparing for a new season and doesn't need this distraction and I don't blame him for not explaining things that don't concern him at what is a very busy time for any driver on the grid.

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Sutil and his dad aren't angry with Pedro , so perhaps he didn't see it happen . I haven't seen any reports of him being seated beside Adrian , as Lewis was .
Your scenario with the police getting statements actually fits perfectly with the premise that Lewis may have lied in these initial interviews .

It would be reason enough to dump a friend in it , so as not to perjure himself .
It would be good reason to call him a coward , from the Sutils's point of view .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sutil and his dad aren't angry with Pedro , so perhaps he didn't see it happen . I haven't seen any reports of him being seated beside Adrian , as Lewis was .
Your scenario with the police getting statements actually fits perfectly with the premise that Lewis may have lied in these initial interviews .

It would be reason enough to dump a friend in it , so as not to perjure himself .
It would be good reason to call him a coward , from the Sutils's point of view .

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Perhaps it's because he is ............................................

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Originally Posted by henners88

I wouldn't expect anything other than a list of negative assumptions from yourself bagwan and I can't understand why you didn't just say that in the first place rather than hinting and attempting to dress it up as a reasonable debate. You appear to have made you mind up here regardless of whether there is any evidence to support it or not. I feel offering less sinister explanations is rather pointless now.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk

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We have been on opposite sides in Hamilton debate before , and it would seem fair to say the very opposite about your argument here .

Your assertion that they would have recorded statements from those involved prompted my last remark .
I had previously understood the the "Sutil group" had left the scene , and would , therefore , have been un-available for statement at that time .

I am perfectly willing to accept a "less sinister" explanation .

Simply , the situation does not seem to fit with the amount of malice the the Sutils are showing , if it's just a matter of Adrian being mad that Lewis wouldn't hold his hand during the trial .

Explain to me why Lewis was branded a "coward" here .
Why would not showing up be "pathetic" or make him "not a man" ?
Those are strong words , and rather more than one would expect used towards one not attending a friend's trial , if moral support was all he was asking for .

Make sense of it for me .

My goodness I've rarely seen such supposition and conjecture outside of the Daily Mail website :s

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Originally Posted by Dave B

My goodness I've rarely seen such supposition and conjecture outside of the Daily Mail website :s

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You never read the Sunday Sport then?

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Originally Posted by Dave B

My goodness I've rarely seen such supposition and conjecture outside of the Daily Mail website :s

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Would you like to contribute to the debate , Dave ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Would you like to contribute to the debate , Dave ?

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Open the pod bay doors........

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

You never read the Sunday Sport then?

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Would you like to contribute to it , too ?

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Originally Posted by The Black Knight

I'm aware of the inherent contradiction but I'm actually a big Schumacher fan. I'm not bashing him, I'm trying to point out ioan's bias to him and open his eyes a little so he can see that plenty of drivers, including Schuey, have used the "I didn't see him" excuse and sometimes it is just that, they didn't see.

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Ioan always likes to play the devil's advocate, to put it mildly. ;) BTW I remember that in 2004, after the San Marino GP, Montoya was very angry at Michael for his "I didn't see him" answer at the press conference after the race and accused him of being "blind or stupid". :D

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Originally Posted by F1boat

and accused him of being "blind or stupid". :D

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I'm over here, Michael........

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Would you like to contribute to it , too ?

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Is there a suggested donation?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Is there a suggested donation?

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Try supplying a well-reasoned explanation as to why the Sutils are so upset .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Try supplying a well-reasoned explanation as to why the Sutils are so upset .

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Errrrr, cos he got a suspended sentence and is looking for someone, anyone, to have a pop at - it's everyone elses fault but his........

Hamilton is a coward, apparently, for not appearing even though the court did not request his presence.

Mmmmm, ya, that makes sense, init tho?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Would you like to contribute to the debate , Dave ?

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Not particularly because (like you) I don't know the full facts. Anything I could add would only be my own opinion and conjecture and bring nothing to the debate.