schumi's wonderful career

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19th November 2011, 08:51
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

A: Is it just because he's German?
B: Or is it that he's bringing billions of dollars of sponsorship money to the team that no other driver can?
C: Or is it that they're such bug-eyed fanboys of schumi, with their mouths full of his nuts, that they'll tirelessly prepare a car for him each weekend, dump silly money into the development of the car, only to get sub-par performance every weekend because of him being old and his "time away from F1"? :rolleyes:
D: Or the fact that Rosberg is just a better driver and Schumacher is way past it?
E: All of the above.

The attraction of Schumacher's name for marketing was certainly a factor in hiring.

Maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal of his drop in performance. We have seen throughout years, how the performances of different drivers have been fluctuating. I mean no-one would think Hamilton of 2011 is performing as well as he did even in 2010. So why should you think the Schumacher of 2011 is as good as ever and never was that good?

Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt. There have been some occasions/certain conditions (like wet weather in Canada), when he and the car have somehow clicked, but not always can he find such comfort zone. Particularly in qualifying.

Still I think Schumacher has been impressive, because with a lot of dedication he has managed to improve during 2011. I wasn't sure he would manage it at that age. However, I have no doubt Schumacher at the age of 25 would have been adapting better in similar circumstances.

I also think there is one obvious indication, where Schumacher's age has been showing. Very odd accidents. With Pérez at Singapore, Kobayashi at Silverstone, Petrov at Istanbul. His momentary decision-making isn't as fresh as it used to be and hence has been caught out on a few occasions. One could argue that without those moments Schumacher could well have more points than Rosberg in the championship right now. And then we could have a different discussion about who is beating who.
19th November 2011, 12:06
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

But then Mansell won back-to-back WDCs at age 39 and 40, beating much younger guys,

Must have missed when he became a double F1 WDC.
19th November 2011, 12:26
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Must have missed when he became a double F1 WDC.

Did I say back-to-back Formula 1 WDC?

1992 - Formula 1 WDC
1993 - Indy Car WDC

:rolleyes:
19th November 2011, 13:59
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt.

You really need to ask that with the experience of Schumacher, against a much less experienced crop of drivers, just what tricks he should be learning. Surely, with 7 titles under his belt, he should be able to bring all that knowledge to bear.

Or possibly without FIAssistance, a Lapdog Team mate, a team built around him, he is passed his prime and his car doesn't benefit from dubious technological advantages, he looks pretty ordinary?
19th November 2011, 14:17
jens

I don't see, how any of the claimed FIA's 'assistance' was possibly helping Schumacher's driving skills? Even if FIA banned beryllium in Mercedes engine or didn't DQ 1999 Malaysia bargeboard-results, then what has this got to do with Schumi's driving? Team-mate still had the same car and managed to match Schumi's pace every now and then. You don't match pace in an inferior car. Strategies can perhaps be a valid point, as can be excessive testing. Although unlike Ferrari, Benetton didn't have its own test track, but Schumi was mighty impressive already there.

In any case, whenever I have looked at Schumacher's driving in late 90's, I could visibly see him driving the wheels off the car. I don't see similarity with 2011. Any kind of favouring factor here is a non-issue, because I'm writing, which kind of impression does his on-track driving & racing leave in either era. Let's take Alonso as an example. It is widely claimed that he is favoured at Ferrari, but this takes nothing away from his own driving. His personal performances have been absolutely fabulous this year. Same stuff with Vettel, Red Bull and "favouring".
19th November 2011, 14:50
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

The attraction of Schumacher's name for marketing was certainly a factor in hiring.

This makes me think really how serious is Mercedes about their involvement in Formula 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Maybe we shouldn't make such a big deal of his drop in performance. We have seen throughout years, how the performances of different drivers have been fluctuating. I mean no-one would think Hamilton of 2011 is performing as well as he did even in 2010. So why should you think the Schumacher of 2011 is as good as ever and never was that good?

Yeah, but when Lewis, Seb or Alonso do worse compared to their teammates, people say it's because they sucked on that track or they made a mistake. However, MS' fans have a very convenient excuse for his bad performance, age and time away from F1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Regarding the age factor. There is an expression - "old dogs don't learn new tricks". Maybe it has some truth in it. And this is why Schumacher even after 2 years and hundreds of practice laps - as you say - has still been struggling to adapt. There have been some occasions/certain conditions (like wet weather in Canada), when he and the car have somehow clicked, but not always can he find such comfort zone. Particularly in qualifying.

What's the explanation for him not "clicking" in every race? Didn't he always "click" during the Ferrari era? So, now does his age and time away from F1 only affect him in some races and not others? Why only the sporadic good performances?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Still I think Schumacher has been impressive, because with a lot of dedication he has managed to improve during 2011. I wasn't sure he would manage it at that age. However, I have no doubt Schumacher at the age of 25 would have been adapting better in similar circumstances.

That is impossible to ever compare or analyze. He never had really good teammates. They were average at best, with lapdog contracts, not allowed to fight him on track or even bother him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

I also think there is one obvious indication, where Schumacher's age has been showing. Very odd accidents. With Pérez at Singapore, Kobayashi at Silverstone, Petrov at Istanbul. His momentary decision-making isn't as fresh as it used to be and hence has been caught out on a few occasions. One could argue that without those moments Schumacher could well have more points than Rosberg in the championship right now. And then we could have a different discussion about who is beating who.

Ifs and buts. Truth is he's under pressure. Rosberg is the strongest teammate he has had to-date, and so he makes stupid mistakes driving under pressure. If he really is handicapped with his age and time away from F1, as his fans like to believe, then Mercedes should replace him ASAP with a driver that can make good use of that car, well, unless Mercedes is not serious about winning, but only running a German freak show with a has-been and a future also-ran.
19th November 2011, 15:15
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

This makes me think really how serious is Mercedes about their involvement in Formula 1.

I think by hiring Schumacher Mercedes was attempting to make themselves look more serious, because at that time other options looked perhaps underwhelming for MB. They could have gone for a Rosberg-Heidfeld line-up, but perhaps Mercedes felt that two drivers without race wins (even if they were not at fault for failing to achieve that feat) and without a particularly big following would be too modest for the legendary marque.

Quote:

Yeah, but when Lewis, Seb or Alonso do worse compared to their teammates, people say it's because they sucked on that track or they made a mistake. However, MS' fans have a very convenient excuse for his bad performance, age and time away from F1.

Well, if Schumi makes a mistake, it's still a mistake and you can say he sucked on track. There can be very different reasons for underperformance, I'd like to call finding causes for it reasoning, not finding (convenient) excuses. But I don't see, what has finding reasons got to do with Schumi's 2000 drives. Likewise I wouldn't see, why should Hamilton's 2011 struggle got anything to do with 2007.

Quote:

What's the explanation for him not "clicking" in every race? Didn't he always "click" during the Ferrari era? So, now does his age and time away from F1 only affect him in some races and not others? Why only the sporadic good performances?

This is the difference between being a great or just a well-performing driver. You can ask many drivers, why are they inconsistent or having bad spells. Mostly related to adapting. As you mention, Schumi 'clicked' more often in Ferrari and that's what we know. He was more consistent (=better) back then.

Quote:

That is impossible to ever compare or analyze. He never had really good teammates. They were average at best, with lapdog contracts, not allowed to fight him on track or even bother him.

So you don't consider it as a possibility that in the past he used to be better at adapting? Forget about team-mates, just concentrate, how Schumi himself has been performing and adapting throughout his career. Drivers always need to keep adapting regardless of the team-mate, because a Formula One car is in an endless evolution due to constant development.

Even when Schumacher was paired with Barrichello, there were periods, where the balance kept swinging in terms of who felt more comfortable in the car. For example in 2002 and 2003 Rubens was more competitive compared to Michael, outqualifying him on many occasions. On other seasons Schumacher had a more significant advantage, especially in 2000 and 2001.

Quote:

Ifs and buts. Truth is he's under pressure. Rosberg is the strongest teammate he has had to-date, and so he makes stupid mistakes driving under pressure.

To be honest, Schumacher has won so much in F1 in the past that I would imagine he is the last person to feel any pressure, even less so in a fight for measly 7th places. I'd imagine Rosberg has more pressure, because he still needs to build up his career for success in long-term.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

If he really is handicapped with his age and time away from F1, as his fans like to believe, then Mercedes should replace him ASAP with a driver that can make good use of that car, well, unless Mercedes is not serious about winning, but only running a German freak show with a has-been and a future also-ran.

Again Mercedes is thinking that they don't have a very good alternative option for Schumi and as the team is still in development phase, it is not particularly attractive for top drivers yet. One may mention di Resta, but perhaps MB would still like to wait and evaluate him after one more season to see his progress.
19th November 2011, 18:19
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Did I say back-to-back Formula 1 WDC?

1992 - Formula 1 WDC
1993 - Indy Car WDC

:rolleyes:

You didn't say it and for good reason, cause an Indy WDC title is nowhere as valuable as an F1 WDC title.
19th November 2011, 18:20
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

I don't see, how any of the claimed FIA's 'assistance' was possibly helping Schumacher's driving skills?

Don't feed the troll.
19th November 2011, 18:24
ioan

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

To be honest, Schumacher has won so much in F1 in the past that I would imagine he is the last person to feel any pressure, even less so in a fight for measly 7th places. I'd imagine Rosberg has more pressure, because he still needs to build up his career for success in long-term.

Exactly.
If anything MS is proving that even though the ultimate speed is not there anymore he has still got better racing skills than Rosberg, and this is probably also the reason why Rosberg Jr. is never going to be a world beater.
20th November 2011, 21:16
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

Exactly.
and this is probably also the reason why Rosberg Jr. is never going to be a world beater.

Just a Schumacher beater :laugh:
21st November 2011, 05:10
i_max2k2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Just a Schumacher beater :laugh:

Indeed with the huge 7 point lead.
21st November 2011, 06:33
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by ioan

You didn't say it and for good reason, cause an Indy WDC title is nowhere as valuable as an F1 WDC title.

A world champion, nonetheless. Regardless of what people think of Indy Car, he won it, unless what you're saying, ioan, is that all of his competitors in Indy Car were chumps and as useless as Rosberg? Surely Mansell won the 1992 and 1993 championships in two of the best cars, but he did win it nonetheless, and was the world champion two years in a row, BTW beating a 47 year old impressive Fittipaldi in Indy Car.

If that Mercedes was a world beater, going by the last two years Rosberg would be going for back to back championships battling his "out of prime" teammate.
21st November 2011, 06:35
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_max2k2

Indeed with the huge 7 point lead.

A lead nonetheless, which I doubt he'll be able to overcome at Brazil, unless Rosberg seriously cocks up his race. So then this will be two years in a row, the "greatest ever" would have been beaten in qualifying, race and overall points table by Barbie Alsoran.
21st November 2011, 09:16
F1boat

I'd rather focus on the huge progress of MS - he was miles behind Nico last year and he is much, much closer now. Although he has lost his incredible pace and ability to adapt to new cars and tracks, he remains a clever racer.
21st November 2011, 13:46
Robinho

regardless of his glittering career, I think MS is slightly flattered this year by the fact that the Merc is in a zone all of its own, well ahead of the other teams but plenty behind the top 3. As a result, even though Rosberg tends to be 3/4's of a second or more ahead in qually, it rarely translates to more than a place on the grid. From there MS is able to race with Rosberg directly with no cars in between. What is clear is that Michael is a match for Rosberg in most races, however if the Merc we on the same pace of some of the other teams they might have been separatedby several cars on the grid and Michael would have to clear them before being anywhere near Rosberg. Its no coincidence that earlier in the season when the cars were less spread out MS made the most places on the 1st lap than anyone else. That is partly his racecraft at the start of the races, and partly qualifying below the cars potential IMO
21st November 2011, 17:50
F1boat

Robinho, I think that Michael is benefiting from the easier overtakes, just like Jenson in McLaren.
22nd November 2011, 05:12
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by F1boat

Robinho, I think that Michael is benefiting from the easier overtakes, just like Jenson in McLaren.

I have to disagree. I have seen very few Daft Racing System overtakes by The Shoe this year. He has, however, consistantly been the leading overtaker on the first lap, just as he was last year if memory serves me right.
22nd November 2011, 07:25
i_max2k2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

A lead nonetheless, which I doubt he'll be able to overcome at Brazil, unless Rosberg seriously cocks up his race. So then this will be two years in a row, the "greatest ever" would have been beaten in qualifying, race and overall points table by Barbie Alsoran.

I dint think you would pretend to be so naive with all your statics, MS had 5 dnf's vs barbie's 2. Well lets see how YOUR greatest ever Kimi does when he comes back, although I did like him when he was there, and he is stil in his early 30's. I doubt if you went in your 40's in F1 you wouldn't win it ;)
22nd November 2011, 07:35
i_max2k2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robinho

regardless of his glittering career, I think MS is slightly flattered this year by the fact that the Merc is in a zone all of its own, well ahead of the other teams but plenty behind the top 3. As a result, even though Rosberg tends to be 3/4's of a second or more ahead in qually, it rarely translates to more than a place on the grid. From there MS is able to race with Rosberg directly with no cars in between. What is clear is that Michael is a match for Rosberg in most races, however if the Merc we on the same pace of some of the other teams they might have been separatedby several cars on the grid and Michael would have to clear them before being anywhere near Rosberg. Its no coincidence that earlier in the season when the cars were less spread out MS made the most places on the 1st lap than anyone else. That is partly his racecraft at the start of the races, and partly qualifying below the cars potential IMO

I dont think we can quantify the difference to 3/4th of a second, its probably more like between 2/10th to 3/10ths. and his race pace is usually with Rosberg and usually a little faster. I do agree with cars spread over and below, this has its advantages but more or less he really needs to worry about the quali pace. Apart from that he is more then a equal to Rosberg even now.
22nd November 2011, 08:43
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by i_max2k2

I dint think you would pretend to be so naive with all your statics, MS had 5 dnf's vs barbie's 2. Well lets see how YOUR greatest ever Kimi does when he comes back, although I did like him when he was there, and he is stil in his early 30's. I doubt if you went in your 40's in F1 you wouldn't win it ;)

Don't wanna be a spelling Nazi, but WTF are statics? Am I electrically charging this forum or what?

Call people naive and then forget that 2 of those 5 DNFs are brain farts resulting in collisions, 2 car failures, and one Petrov failure. Compared to that, Rosberg has one racing incident and one Liuzzi failure at Monza. So now the "greatest ever" is not only slower than Barbie, but also more accident prone and inconsistent. :laugh: How many times has he tangled with other drivers and had stupid incidents in the last two years?

As for Kimi, I like him as a driver, but never said he's the greatest ever. But I'm guessing with his active WRC experience behind him, he should do better than Cheatmacher.
22nd November 2011, 10:47
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Don't wanna be a spelling Nazi, but WTF are statics? Am I electrically charging this forum or what?

Call people naive and then forget that 2 of those 5 DNFs are brain farts resulting in collisions, 2 car failures, and one Petrov failure. Compared to that, Rosberg has one racing incident and one Liuzzi failure at Monza. So now the "greatest ever" is not only slower than Barbie, but also more accident prone and inconsistent. :laugh: How many times has he tangled with other drivers and had stupid incidents in the last two years?

As for Kimi, I like him as a driver, but never said he's the greatest ever. But I'm guessing with his active WRC experience behind him, he should do better than Cheatmacher.

As I have said in other threads, Nico is in the prime of his life, The Shoe is not. If some 42 year old was within a few meters of me in a 100 meter sprint race, I would be ferking embarrassed. Nico should be too, cause he should be running circles around the pensioner, but he aint!
22nd November 2011, 11:42
CaptainRaiden

Quote:

Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

As I have said in other threads, Nico is in the prime of his life, The Shoe is not. If some 42 year old was within a few meters of me in a 100 meter sprint race, I would be ferking embarrassed. Nico should be too, cause he should be running circles around the pensioner, but he aint!

Ah yes, the age excuse comes up again whenever he's not doing well. The 1993 Indy Car field must be really amazingly crap if two "pensioners" like Mansell and Fittipaldi (47) finished first and second. Also, I'd like to know which world you're living in where a 42 year old guy is considered a pensioner. WTF?

Like I have said in other threads, if MS is doing bad, conveniently choose between age and time away from F1. If he accidentally does well in a race, then it's "ZOMG, Holy Sauerkrautilicious crap Batman! The guy is superhuman! I love schumi, goo. His chin so sexy."

:rolleyes:
22nd November 2011, 14:41
Knock-on

Hang on a minute???

Now Nico should be disgusted with himself for 'only' beating the Shooooo.

Them goal posts 'aint just shifting, they're fading in and out of an alternative reality!!
22nd November 2011, 14:48
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainRaiden

Ah yes, the age excuse comes up again whenever he's not doing well. The 1993 Indy Car field must be really amazingly crap if two "pensioners" like Mansell and Fittipaldi (47) finished first and second. Also, I'd like to know which world you're living in where a 42 year old guy is considered a pensioner. WTF?

Like I have said in other threads, if MS is doing bad, conveniently choose between age and time away from F1. If he accidentally does well in a race, then it's "ZOMG, Holy Sauerkrautilicious crap Batman! The guy is superhuman! I love schumi, goo. His chin so sexy."

:rolleyes:

:erm: I never said he is not doing well. He's actually doing well keeping up with a highly rated youngster like Nico.
22nd November 2011, 14:53
Dave B

Pre-Brazil, Rosberg has out-qualified Schumacher 15-3. I wonder if this is evidence that MS is still finding it tough getting used to the tyres - something which we were assured wouldn't be a problem with the 2011 Pirellis.
22nd November 2011, 16:03
kfzmeister

There are some nice comparisons here. Hint* (look towards the bottom. Who stands out?)

Formula 1

I bet next season will be even better for him!!
22nd November 2011, 16:13
Dave B

Quote:

Q: Who has been the top starter in 2011?
A: The top starter is Schumacher, who has gained a total of 34 positions...

Q: Who has gained most positions on the first lap in 2011?
A: In total terms, Schumacher...

Q: Finally, who has done the most overtaking in the races after lap one?
A: This classification is headed by Sauber’s Sergio Perez and Buemi, both with 82 overtakes. They are followed by McLaren’s Jenson Button (77), Red Bull’s Mark Webber (76), Alguersuari (74) and Schumacher (71).

I think that's more a reflection on their relatively poor qualifying positions more than anything else. At the other extreme Vettel has hardly overtaken anybody, but nor has he needed to.
22nd November 2011, 17:21
woody2goody

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Hang on a minute???

Now Nico should be disgusted with himself for 'only' beating the Shooooo.

Them goal posts 'aint just shifting, they're fading in and out of an alternative reality!!

This is the thing, it's almost impossible to figure out how well Rosberg is doing because nobody really knows where Schumacher is in terms of performance. If this is indeed the same old Schumacher as before with more experience, then Nico is a superstar. If Schumi is below-par, then obviously Nico isn't as good as we all thought, because he's not beating him by much at all.
23rd November 2011, 05:22
555-04Q2

Quote:

Originally Posted by woody2goody

This is the thing, it's almost impossible to figure out how well Rosberg is doing because nobody really knows where Schumacher is in terms of performance. If this is indeed the same old Schumacher as before with more experience, then Nico is a superstar. If Schumi is below-par, then obviously Nico isn't as good as we all thought, because he's not beating him by much at all.

Good point :up:

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